Saturday, February 02, 2008

More on the Boondoggle:  Streetcars Fizzle in Cleveland

Posted by The Dean of Cincinnati

A few months ago, Michael Earl Patton published this analysis of the boondoggle called the Cincinnati Streetcar proposal.  And this week, Bill Sloat over at The Daily Bellwether posted this piece, highlighting how a similar streetcar line just up the interstate in Cleveland has turned from a creative-class pipe-dream into a “nightmare.”

Sloat introduces his item by getting right to the point:

In Patton’s piece on the boondoggle, he indicates why Portland fails on all counts as an adequate model for Cincinnati:

In conversations with Patton, he has shared a perfectly reasonable idea that the politicians will probably never have the good sense to try:  painted lines on the street.

With a painted line, people can physically see the route—as with a streetcar line.  And Metro already has some busses designed to look like trolley-cars.  Why not paint a sample route, and run the trolley buses over it for a few months?  Would there be substantive ridership?  And if not, why bother spending all this money, with the risk of finding ourselves amidst a Cleveland nightmare?

Socializer!

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Mike says:
02 Feb 2008  at  09:32 am | #

"Cincinnati is different.  It is losing population.  More people are leaving than coming.  There are plenty of places on the market for newcomers.” - FALSE - and your argument goes out the window…

says:
02 Feb 2008  at  09:44 am | #

Please explain the specific type of proof which shows a net population increase.  Don’t say the Mayor’s report:  tell me HOW he reached that determination.

Also, in your response, account for the housing market with no one buying, and the high number of empty condos and office spaces downtown.

Mike says:
02 Feb 2008  at  06:43 pm | #

You want to get into housing market? Try looking at the entire country. A slow housing market locally does not indicate a dying city as I’m sure you would like it to. If you want to go there, why don’t you research the local market and compare it to the national average. You’ll be surprised that it’s one of the most stable in the country. Like it or not, people are in fact buying downtown; much to your dismay I’m sure.

Yea! says:
02 Feb 2008  at  10:23 pm | #

"The 2.2-mile Waterfront Line is a light-rail loop built” does not equal a street car.  I have never been to Cleveland, but this does say light-rail, not streetcar/trolley.  There is a difference in the two.

Now if Cleveland’s is in fact a street car then ignore this comment, but it says light rail.

Mike says:
03 Feb 2008  at  12:19 am | #

By the way Dean. The Cincinnati Metropolitan area grew at a 3% rate according to the Census Bureau.

The Census also aknowledged their error - refer to past Enquirer articles about this.

By the way, the jump in logic is amazing in the story above. You first talk about a “light rail” - which by the way is not even close to a street car, and then go right into how Portland is not like Cincinnati. Then, your only point is that Cincinnati is loosing population - which is a false statement.

The more I read the article the less sense it makes to me.

says:
03 Feb 2008  at  07:50 am | #

Fine, Mike.  For the sake of argument, let’s presume that you are right on each and every of your points.  You are right and I am wrong.  Congrats.

Now, why not paint a line on the road and run trolley-buses as a pilot to gauge ridership?

Mike says:
03 Feb 2008  at  09:36 am | #

I’m not totally against painting a line to be honest. To me it doesn’t sound like an unreasonable idea.

My point was that the article wasn’t entirely clear or accurate in my mind.

says:
03 Feb 2008  at  10:26 am | #

Fine.  So while I may question the “revised” census numbers, while you do not—and while we may not agree on whether Cleveland is an accurate comparison, and what not—we both understand that painted lines and trolley-buses are a reasonable way to gather ridership information.

Why not join me, then, in sending the message?

Mike says:
03 Feb 2008  at  02:44 pm | #

Painted lines and running dedicated buses at 10 minute intervals may give you a rough estimate of current utility of such a line, but I think the whole point is to encourage development and build the ridership over years.

says:
03 Feb 2008  at  02:51 pm | #

What was the idea in Cleveland?

says:
04 Feb 2008  at  09:09 am | #

Well Dean, this is a really good suggestion to promote. I read Michael Earl Patton’s article that you referred to and he is right on the mark. If I would have seen it sooner , I would have mentioned that in his comparison of Cincinnati and Little Rock , he left out the fact that Little Rock is a state capital and like Columbus which is nothing more than a town that had a central location and grew up in a cornfield, it experienced growth for similar reasons. It grew fast because of all the government jobs (federal and state) that tend to grow much faster than the general economy. So Little Rock grew for reasons other than a stupid streetcar.

I might suggest that the buses that follow your yellow line charge no fee and maybe install heater leather seats, etc. so no one can claim that the idea did not get a fair test.

Good work on this idea!

Railfan says:
04 Feb 2008  at  09:29 am | #

RTA best-transit award is well-deserved; now it’s time for expansion
Posted by Phil Thomas, Parma October 17, 2007 23:58PM

As my son and I rode the RTA Red Line from Brookpark to the Browns-Ravens game a few weeks ago, I thought, what a wonderful resource we have in our rapid transit system. My son saw it as an adventure he didn’t expect, to go along with a great Browns game. After all, he had never been on the Lakefront Line, which winds through the Flats on its way to Cleveland Browns Stadium. “This is neat, Dad!” he exclaimed as we passed the throng of tailgaiters partying in the Flats.

We were in Prague two years ago, and he and I reminisced about how impressed we were with that city’s public transportation system. It was so convenient to get everywhere by bus, subway or train that it begged the question, why don’t Clevelanders use the RTA more? I showed him a map of the other RTA lines and talked about how I used the RTA to commute during college to John Carroll University. I told him I didn’t get a car until my sophomore year. The expression on his face was priceless. We talked about the history of the Shaker Rapid and its quaint, yellow trolley cars; and how Grandma took my brother and me on our first Rapid ride to the end of the line at West Park when I was half his age. He usually rolls his eyes at my jaunts down memory lane; but I have to remember that he is the same kid that never had to walk to school.

We talked about how first-time visitors, taking the Rapid from the airport to downtown, get their impressions of Cleveland shaped by closed shops, rundown homes, graffiti and the overgrown right-of-way. All of that changed when we reached the West 25th Street station and saw what the Rotary Club had done to beautify that area. He said, “It would be nice to help clean up some of these areas.” I smiled and thought how that St. Ignatius “Men for Others” motto was beginning to pay off. As we crossed the Cuyahoga River, he said, “Now this is impressive!” as the Cleveland skyline glistened under the autumn sun allowing the beauty of our city to emerge.

I told him that the Rapid originally reached east and west to where the population had migrated; but I felt that RTA had neglected the growth to the south. With the new emphasis on regionalism, we talked about how a southern RTA line traversing the Cuyahoga River Valley to Akron, with stops at Tremont, Steelyard Commons and the Cuyahoga Valley National Park would open up these areas to convenient public transportation and reduce the daily traffic congestion on the Interstate 77 corridor. He asked why I never had suggested this to the RTA board. I told him I did but never received a response. The cynicism in my voice was quite apparent. I told him how the Cuyahoga Valley Line already has regular runs to Hale Farm and Akron and how the native Indians had used this area as a trail from Cleveland to Akron. I said I was excited to hear how Lorain was thinking of developing a Cleveland commuter line to that city.

We entered the stadium for a Browns game, but our RTA ride may have more of a lasting impact than the final score. On our way home, we saw the signs on the buses announcing the RTA as “The Best Large Transit System in North America.” We looked at each other and smiled. Kudos to the RTA and the continued, future growth of mass transit in Northeast Ohio.


Paul Green says:
04 Feb 2008  at  10:47 am | #

Somehow City Council has got it in their heads that if they build a shiny new toy, this will entice people from the suburbs to come downtown and shop.

This is wrong for two reasons.  One, these folks don’t come downtown now because they don’t feel safe there.  And a streetcar/amusement park ride won’t make them feel (or be) any safer.

Two, they don’t need to come downtown to shop because they can drive to their local business district and buy everything they need.

As has been pointed out, mass transit systems do not pay for themselves. If this system is built, it will be an infinite money sink for the taxpayers of Cincinnati.

says:
04 Feb 2008  at  12:33 pm | #

I am somewhat irritated by the Railfan story #12 because he is like an annoying noise that wasn’t annoying when it was first heard but when it continues forever ....

Because he thinks it is cute, he thinks that we should buy it for him.

I rode that Hopkins-Cleveland airport rail twice. I used to fly into the airport often and I found the rail interesting but convenient only if I needed to be downtown and nowhere else. It was never crowded because there was no demand anymore. The second time that I used it, I realized I was trying to make it work because it was different and I went back to normal transportation means.

I hear all of the talk from people like Railfan who talk like they know more than the rest of the public when it is just a feel-good argument. I have and still do ride public transportation more than most that either don’t have an option to other transportation or happen to be one of those that happen to be fortunate enough to find a fit where they can use one route daily because of unique circumstance.

I often use the Tank bus to go to the airport, especially when I am leaving the country for a week or more. I don’t want to pay for parking. I start in Cincinnati and transfer downtown to Tank. I am amazed at how few know about this public transportation including most personnel at the airport. Seldom if ever do I share the bus with typical air travelers other than an very occasional flight attendant . The bus is almost exclusively used by airport maintenance people. It is cheap and with the exception of the downtown transfer, it is convenient and timely. Considering the I have to transfer anyway when I would off-airport park, the transfer is the same. So why doesn’t the public use this service? Or, tell me why the public would not use this service, but would ride a streetcar from Findlay Market to Fifth and Vine.

Convictions are a greater threat to truth than ignorance - Nietzsche

says:
04 Feb 2008  at  03:05 pm | #

1. Brent Spence Bridge, I-75, the police dept., snow plows, etc. don’t pay for themselves either - and if they did we wouldn’t need city government.

2. Its amazing how far the Beacon is grasping at straws here.  How does a “light rail loop” in the article get retermed as a “similar streetcar line” in the Beacon.  As you say you have studied streetcars extensively, it is pretty incredible that you use the two different forms of transportation interchangeably.  A cruise ship and a ferry boat both use the water as a means for transportation, that doesn’t mean they serve the same purpose.

cincysuz says:
04 Feb 2008  at  05:34 pm | #

For the life of me I can’t understand, no matter how much I read about it, what sense it would make to bring back trolley cars in OTR. On tracks or off tracks. It would be expensive to build and run and who is the ridership? Wouldn’t adding a few smaller Metro-operated buses, from maybe lower Clifton through Findlay Market to the museums, Music Hall, City Hall, the Convention Center and Stadiums with stops every 20 minutes during whatever turns out to be prime riding hours, make more sense? Trolleys is a very ill conceived proposal.

Kevin LeMaster says:
04 Feb 2008  at  09:25 pm | #

“Somehow City Council has got it in their heads that if they build a shiny new toy, this will entice people from the suburbs to come downtown and shop.”

This is absolutely not why they want to build this.

says:
04 Feb 2008  at  10:30 pm | #

Kevin LeMaster says:
04 Feb 2008 at 09:25 pm | # “Somehow City Council has got it in their heads that if they build a shiny new toy, this will entice people from the suburbs to come downtown and shop.”

This is absolutely not why they want to build this.

of course it is… always has been....

in the meantime, the yokels that run CINCINNAPATHY city gubment have ok’d the fare increase for Metro beginning this week.... since I don’t have to travel downtown to work, I get hosed $75 per month for MY pass (zone 2), that is if I chose to purchase one....funny how folx that are driven everywhere and don’t have to subject themselves to the sad excuse for public transportation are the one’s that make said decision for everyone else, including those like myself that don’t reside in klancinnati....  I’d like to see a report on how up or down ridership is after this increase....

in the meantime, why have a streetcar/lightrail boondoggle just downtown and not extend it throughout the region? its funny, this city only wants to suck glory when the region is classified as livable, and NOT the city itself....

says:
05 Feb 2008  at  04:34 pm | #

The title is misleading, the Cleveland project wasn’t streetcars.

Kevin LeMaster says:
05 Feb 2008  at  05:37 pm | #

of course it is… always has been....

OK...if you say so.

says:
05 Feb 2008  at  05:59 pm | #

Chris Bortz says that rails show businesses that the City is serious, and will then inspire them to open shop along the rail line.  But for what purpose?  Is this only about getting shopping options for people who already live on the line?  Or, is the comment you disparage, Kevin, actually with more merit.

Just use deductive reasoning.

says:
05 Feb 2008  at  08:34 pm | #

since I don’t have to travel downtown to work, I get hosed $75 per month for MY pass (zone 2), that is if I chose to purchase one....funny how folx that are driven everywhere and don’t have to subject themselves to the sad excuse for public transportation are the one’s that make said decision for everyone else, including those like myself that don’t reside in klancinnati....  I’d like to see a report on how up or down ridership is after this increase....

in the meantime, why have a streetcar/lightrail boondoggle just downtown and not extend it throughout the region?

ummmm....we tried to extend better public transit to the entire region.  the light rail intiative passed in the city and was favored by a 2 to 1 margin in downtown/otr.  it was the rest of the region that is fine with the economic and environmental detriment of auto-centric societies.  the city is giving more transit options to the parts of town that have, though voting, asked for them.

oh, and as to why bus fares are so high once you get out of the city, most suburban municipalities refuse to fund Metro service (see Mason).

Mike says:
06 Feb 2008  at  08:51 pm | #

Rising gas prices = increased Metro fares

common sense

Kevin LeMaster says:
07 Feb 2008  at  05:23 pm | #

Or, is the comment you disparage, Kevin, actually with more merit.

Just use deductive reasoning.

I took issue with the assertion that it’s a shiny new toy meant to attract suburbanites.

A streetcar is a form of transit - an urban circulator meant to move people between points within the urban core.  They’re not building it as a tourist attraction, because novelty quickly wears off.

If some yokel from Maineville wants to go down and look at it, that’s fine, but that’s certainly not the business model.

My reasoning skills are fine.