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Friday, May 30, 2008
City Hall discriminating against hot dog vendors?
Posted by The Dean of Cincinnati
What’s the deal with hot dog vendors? Does the City wish to make it difficult for someone just trying to make ends meet with modest work as an itinerant vendor? A quick comparison between two different charges shows such a drastic difference, one must wonder why the City doesn’t want people to buy hot dogs on a corner.
As recently discovered by senior analyst Michael Earl Patton, the City of Cincinnati leases prime restaurant real-estate to 3CDC for only $100 per year. In exchange, 3CDC makes at least $59,900 annually through their arrangement with Via Vita on Fountain Square.
Cincinnati charges 3CDC less for a year’s lease on prime land than a hot dog vendor gets charged for selling wieners for one day.
Do I have a problem with Via Vita’s? Not inherently. One day I may even make it down there for food. Perhaps I will love the joint. But I don’t have a problem with people buying something to eat from a vendor on the street, either. In fact, such street vendors add to the character and charm of a downtown area, in my estimation.
The Lucky Dogs from the French Quarter in New Orleans inspired a main character from a Pulitzer Prize winning novel, and a related non-fiction book about the vendors themselves. So if some want to say I’m imagining the idea that something like hot dog vendors add to a city’s charm, I offer those two works as pieces of evidence supporting my claim.
Hot dog vendors should be able to sell their stuff for ten dollars a day. Even then, their deal would still be staggeringly more expensive than 3CDC’s prime downtown real estate.
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30 May 2008 at 07:14 pm | #
I know they used to be all over main street when the entertainment district was booming… Someone must have run them off. I know they do have certain areas where street vendors are allowed to set up with their licenses. They also have ordinances that keep them at a certain distance from each other
30 May 2008 at 08:00 pm | #
The hot-dog carts are GREAT !
There is nothing better than a hot met combo with grilled onions, grippo BQ chips and a soft drink !
If you haven’t bee to the Dalton Street Post Office and shopped with Diane at the cart then you don’t know the meaning of hard work, PERIOD !
The lease rate disparagement is appalling !
30 May 2008 at 08:59 pm | #
how much do the hotdog venders get charged?
30 May 2008 at 11:20 pm | #
25 dollars for a vending license. I believe they would have to pay for a board of health license as well. I will find out how much that is
30 May 2008 at 11:25 pm | #
$135.00 for a food vending license for 2008.
30 May 2008 at 11:39 pm | #
As this blog writer stated so well, it is not chain restaurants or scripted events that make one love Cincinnati, but things like street vendors, goetta, chili, even cicadas. When we try to imitate someone else, or control everything so that creativity is absent, then we might as well leave downtown and hang out in the Kenwood Towne Center.
30 May 2008 at 11:48 pm | #
That might be the food vending license fee, but the C.M.C. states that the charge for an itinerant vendor to sell food is $150 per day. The vendor is then allowed to set up in a place for up to 120 days. The code also states that a peddlar’s permit, which is much, much cheaper and which allows one to go door-to-door or place-to-place, is not valid for the Fountain Square area. See Chapter 839 of the Cincinnati Municipal Code.
31 May 2008 at 12:54 am | #
Thanks Patton.. I think that 150 should go into the hotdog stands pocket everyday instead of the cities! That is absurd that they should have to pay that to operate every single day! I would call that discrimination as the dean calls it! It should be an annual fee just like every other business in the city! By the way I hope you run for city council again, I really liked alot of your viewpoints in the last election! It isnt fair how they treat hot dog vendors or landlords in this city, and you really did a great job standing up for “the small guy” in the last election. Being a landlord is not an easy or glamorous job and noone in their right mind should want to be one the way the city treats them, and Im sure it scares hotdog vendors away as well having to pay 150 a day as well.
31 May 2008 at 04:04 am | #
Once again, your ‘senior analyst’ failed to do his homework. Jesus Christ on a popsicle stick, you would think that when writing this post you and your ‘senior analyst’ would take five minutes to find out what a hot dog vendor licence actually costs, and then pass that information along to your readers.
The fee for a street vendor is $400 per year, plus what ever the Health Department requires.
http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/cdap/pages/-6993-/
the $135 fee is for a special event food licence (i.e., a church festival, etc)
http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/health/downloads/health_eps18911.pdf
Where your ‘senior analyst’ came up with the figure if $150 per day is beyond me.
MEP’s title of ‘senior analyst’ reminds me of The Daily Show, where Jon Stewart introduces every one of their faux correspondents as ‘senior (topic de jour) correspondent’, except with the Daily Show the comedy is intentional.
31 May 2008 at 08:38 am | #
Michael that is for peddling wares outside of the downtown district. It is NOT $150 per day to have a vendors license downtown. It is $400 a year. Granted, higher than Via Vita is paying 3CDC but no where near the outrage that you indicated.
See here.
The code differentiates between a peddler ($150/year) and an itinerant vendor ($150/day). What the difference is hard to determine by their language.
It’s confusing b/c the code references not selling on Fountain Square but then goes on to say
Sec. 839-13. Street Sales in Vending Districts.
No person licensed as a peddler shall demonstrate, sell or offer for sale or barter any goods, wares, merchandise, food, confection, or drink:
(a) In the Downtown Vending District.
(b) In any other vending district except in accordance with all of the following provisions:
31 May 2008 at 10:29 am | #
Both comments provide a link to a FAQ page, not a link to the actual program. No formal description is given as to what this fee actually allows one to do.
If one goes to the actual webpage for the Downtown Street Vendor Program, one gets the message that the program is currently being redesigned. There is no other information given.
Therefore I went to the Cincinnati Municipal Code to determine council’s intent. Council’s intent is clear—$150 per day. The charge for Via Vita for operating on Fountain Square is $100 per year. That is a significant difference.
Bearman (#10) was respectful in his comments. CincyCapell (#9) did not even check out the reference that I gave and tried to sling gobs of mud. As usual with CincyCapell, he missed and the mud fell all over him instead.
31 May 2008 at 02:46 pm | #
And this is where I am saying you are reading it wrong. You are assuming that a hot dog vendor is a “Itinerant Vendor” who does have to pay $150/day. They appear to be a “Peddler” which is $150/year (however the code does say that the downtown district is excluded from the code and therefore is probably how the city can charge the $400/year.
From what the code says, a hot dog vendor can not be a “itinerant vendor” unless he plans to only do business temporarily (which is different than seasonal) and in one place. Sure you could say they set up right outside of the same location everyday but that is not guaranteed to them. Finally from what I could determine from the code, “Itinerant Vendors” set up on someone else’s property not city property.
31 May 2008 at 04:11 pm | #
Just Google the phrase “itinerant vendor” and “hot dog” and you will see that it is quite common to classify them that way.
But this is really not the point. Take whatever it is an itinerant vendor sells—if the whole hot dog thing is really that big an obstacle to you. Replace that item with the phrase about “hot dog vendors,” and you will see that the point remains the same.
31 May 2008 at 06:39 pm | #
It is a common tactic of mine (I mean my alter-ego Cincycapell) to make an accusation, throw out a link, and end up having my own link disprove my allegation. I am ashamed of myself each time I get caught doing this. Hey can some of you guys buy my crappy CD’s since noone else will?
- Little Napolean Matusak
31 May 2008 at 08:35 pm | #
So can someone tell us why we used to see more hotdog vendors? What did they change from when we used to have at least 2 of them on Main Street after the bars let out? Could it be with the long time bad crime image downtown that maybe they dont feel as safe anymore?
31 May 2008 at 10:31 pm | #
Rocco, some friends have told me crime is primary cause that we don’t see the food vendors & the fees have risen quite a bit.
In addition, during the civil melee several years back, you’ll remember the criminals unleashed their hatred on the hotdog vendors, upturning carts, food spoilage, etc. As I’ve been told, the carts are quite expensive. In addition, the man who owns the food carts business, was never fairly & justly compensated for the mess that was created. Other small business owners suffered the same fate up in OTR & Findlay Market. Many of them had fold up as the losses incurred were rather significant.
Lots of people are grumbling about the lack of the food carts, especially now with the weather being pleasant. They could pick up a quick snack in a hurry & enjoy the fresh air, rather than stand in line at a sandwich shop. It’s unfortunate that bad behaviors & governmental greed have robbed individuals of having a nice independent, locally owned business & livelihood.
Believe me, if I were a quick snack person, I’d have no reservation about getting a lunch from the carts. They are kept immaculately clean & the food is handled properly. Be warned about the food trailers that seem to pop up overnight in some vacant lot. I can’t understand why the Health Dept. isn’t on these nasty operations. I’ve been told at some of the trailers you can get a burger, a Coke & some crack. And you can get an ugly episode of food poisoning as a loyal customer reward!
01 Jun 2008 at 09:31 am | #
Dean it doesn’t matter how google defines it. You know as well as I that the city does it’s own thing and your initial point was based off an error that Michael made in reading the code.
If I wanted to sell necklaces on from a cart DOWNTOWN on an ongoing basis by the code definition, I wouldn’t be an Itinerant Vendor and have to pay $150/day. I would pay $400/year for a street vendor’s license.
01 Jun 2008 at 11:43 am | #
Please provide the legal definition for a street vendor then.
Here’s the definition of an itinerant vendor per the C.M.C:
As you noted earlier (#10), peddlars are excluded from Fountain Square so that provision could not apply.
It’s quite possible that some vendors were not charged the amount that the code requires, but that is another topic and I did not research that. My point was that council, when determining what it’s worth to sell food from public areas downtown, thought that $150 per day was fair. That is far less than what 3CDC pays for the Via Vite space.
01 Jun 2008 at 03:02 pm | #
Maybe the Dean should set up a Cincinnati Promotional Booth on fountain square one day and sell hotdogs as part of the promotion and see if he can make it through all of the red tape. I think it sounds like a job for the dean hehe
01 Jun 2008 at 04:06 pm | #
It was supposed to say Cincinnati Beacon Promotional Booth
01 Jun 2008 at 04:27 pm | #
We will have Deans Day On The Square! Or would that conflict with the boring 3cdc Events that noone attends? We could bring in Rock Bands from all over the US (or whichever kind of music the dean prefers) The dean could be selling capes for the kids, glow sticks, dean of cincinnati dolls… Justin could even help out with a 98 degrees as part of the concert. There could be bikini competitions, skate boarding competitions, Hell we could even set up a Karoke Stage between bands! We could throw in a few slip n slides for daring people to cool off on, Dont forget to include the 3cdc and city council dunking boothe! Man this would be some serious FUN!!!!!!!! LOL
01 Jun 2008 at 04:28 pm | #
Mayor Mallory of course would throw the first ball at the dunking boothe!
02 Jun 2008 at 03:35 pm | #
21. Sure, Bill will give you a permit for that . If you let him think he thought of it, he might then
02 Jun 2008 at 06:41 pm | #
Deans Day! Cmon Give us your feedback on the idea Jason! I think it would be a huge turnout!
08 Jun 2008 at 11:41 am | #
I want hot dog!
08 Jun 2008 at 05:07 pm | #
HOT SASUAGE BABY!