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Saturday, October 06, 2007
Will God Be Allowed to Visit in the New Jail?
Posted by Michael Earl Patton
Photo courtesy of here.
One of the items in the so-called “Comprehensive Safety Plan” is video visitation. As explained earlier in The Cincinnati Beacon, this would prevent in-person visits to the inmates, even from family members. The Beacon has recently learned that video visitation is already being used in the Butler County jail, and not only family members but also members of the clergy are restricted from meeting the inmates.
Currently in Hamilton County, members of the clergy—ministers, priests, rabbis, and imams—are allowed “contact visits” with the inmates. They are allowed to be in the same actual room with no glass separating them. They can share readings from Scripture and, if appropriate for that religion, lay hands for a blessing or administer Communion. All the clergy with whom the Beacon spoke said that the current system works well.
But that might change with the new jail. Butler County has severely restricted these contact visits. Clergy and inmates do not meet in person to share Scripture, but do this via a video monitor from another room. Blessings are pronounced over this video monitor—no actual laying on of hands. Priests find it extremely difficult, if not actually impossible, to give Holy Communion or other sacraments.
To this writer, this seems a flagrant violation of the First Amendment’s guarantee of the free exercise of religion. Whether or not an inmate has actually yet been convicted (and in Hamilton County, the chances are that they have not), the right to practice religion was considered to be so fundamental that it was protected in the very beginning of the First Amendment, not a later one.
Earlier, Commissioners Portune and Pepper were asked what the practices actually would be under this “video visitation.” They have not yet responded, and the Beacon has learned that the details have yet to be worked out. This means, of course, that they may yet decide to keep the inmates from having direct contact and prevent them from receiving blessings and sacraments from religious clergy.
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06 Oct 2007 at 08:38 pm | #
Will god be allowed to visit in the new jail?
There is one?
06 Oct 2007 at 11:26 pm | #
ah… Jesus Coorrr - ist
Here, if that’s going to make you vote against the safety plan - even I can say - fixed, done, forget about it
07 Oct 2007 at 06:52 am | #
JFD,
It doesn’t matter, in this context, whether there is a god. We live in a country that allegedly values the free exercise of religion. Additionally, we live in a country where people are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
Finally, we put people in jail who are awaiting their court date.
Should innocent people be denied the free access to practicing their religion?
Video visitations need to be struck from the plans.
07 Oct 2007 at 07:06 am | #
I’m far less interested in whether “god” can visit in the jail (which sounds like just an extension of the prayer in the schools, prayer in the courts, prayer in the shopping centers! Next it will be posting the Ten Commandments. Let your buddy Brinkman worry about that one. I’m sure he’ll be able to find sufficient funds for a lawsuit.)
What concerns me is eliminating visits with the actual walking the earth, flesh and blood loved ones like mom, son, daughter, wife, partner, friend and even legal counsel. It’s a dehumanizing practice that supports the premise that incarceration is solely for punishment not rehabilitation. It’s also dangerous because the inmate becomes more angry and the “keepers” have even more opportunity to abuse. No communication can be shared that is not observed. Not even a whisper or a gesture. A fertile climate for abuse and dispair. Guantanamo comes to the Queen City.
Making sure that the clergy can have a face-to-face is not nearly as important as assuring that the family relationship is sustained if only for an hour. I’ve said before that I’ve had the misfortune of visiting someone in the Butler County system, via video screen. It’s actually worse than no visit. This is the part of the jail plan that is the most troubling.
07 Oct 2007 at 09:39 am | #
cincysuz, I agree—but I’m imagining how this must feel for someone who is really religious. It is one thing to damage a relationship with a family. Now they are going after people’s souls!
07 Oct 2007 at 10:54 am | #
#3JH: “It doesn’t matter, in this context, whether there is a god.”
Then maybe you should change your headline to reflect that.
I don’t object to live visitations by clergy and family; just your out of context use of a higher power. If in fact there is a god then it would have no trouble circumventing jail security. Your headline promotes the idea, the jail plan assumes it can prevent a supreme being from operating, in a godlike manner. A cheap attempt to “demonize” the jail plan to say the least.
07 Oct 2007 at 11:12 am | #
JFD, your constant cheap shots accusing us of cheap shots ring hollow.
Why not actually discuss the point here—the point that innocent people are having their rights violated. But you don’t care, as long as you get a big new jail to lock up more poor people.
07 Oct 2007 at 11:14 am | #
If these people behind bars were god fearing people to begin with, there would be no need to have a visit from the clergy. Just another cheap ruse.
07 Oct 2007 at 12:28 pm | #
These people are not having their rights violated. Why do people find it necessary to lie in an attempt to make a point? If Butler County is using the same proposed video system, how can you stand to house the prisoners in that institution?
07 Oct 2007 at 12:39 pm | #
Should the entire church choir be allowed to visit?
07 Oct 2007 at 01:09 pm | #
JH#7: “Why not actually discuss the point here”
JFD#6: “I don’t object to live visitations by clergy and family”
Does this speak to the point or was there something else?
JH#7: “the point that innocent people are having their rights violated.”
The new jail is not built yet, so innocent people could not possibly be having their rights violated in the manner your post suggests. Does this also speak to the point?
JH#7: “JFD, your constant cheap shots accusing us of cheap shots ring hollow.”
If by hollow you mean, falls on deaf ears, I agree.
07 Oct 2007 at 04:07 pm | #
I can become a Reverend in 5 minutes or less online:
http://www.themonastery.org/?destination=colorOrdination
And it’s just as valid as any other ordination… unless the state wants to get in the business of declaring what is & is not a valid religion. Currently the state doesn’t get into that.
07 Oct 2007 at 04:30 pm | #
The cold hard facts are that most of these people are choosing to relinquish some of their rights by violating the personal rights of others and society. It is a known choice they make when they engage inthis conduct.
Most people charged with nonviolent offenses and without a history of other charges and without a history of not showing up for court date are released on OR bond. (More so if you’re white, of course)
Those being held, pending trial, denied OR bond usually not only have an established history as stated above, but also come to court without any family, clergy or other citizen willing to vouch for their return pending hearing.
We attempt to over-simplify these things - and abandon the dirty little secret on this blog that is the truth - that, frequently, criminal are criminals.
I do understand, however, that the CJC is going to be launching a pilot project if the safety plan passes that will collect and interpret the data regarding who is being held until trial and what the factors are affecting the high bond and no bond in order to form recommendations for reforms.... so the issue isn’t just political fodder, but real results solving problems that is quantitatively sound and based on empirical evidence - not conjecture and opinion.
My guess is, if the pilot project is done we will see a huge disparity in treatment of blacks and the poor. What will be damning is the break down of what judges are doing what and the commonalities we see.
Of course, this all takes money to expound upon the truth ... where can we get the funding that has been lacking for the last 2 decades?
07 Oct 2007 at 04:41 pm | #
funnelcake,
Do you have a point? I got ordained online. I am now licensed to solemnize marriages in the State of Ohio.
So?
07 Oct 2007 at 04:41 pm | #
anon #13:
Your comments are counter to the heart of what it means to be an American.
I guess the terrorists have won.
07 Oct 2007 at 05:03 pm | #
Dean - My point is that allowing clergy to visit in person would effectively allow anyone & everyone to visit in person.
Personally I would be more concerned about the privacy of lawyer visits. Can lawyers meet their clients face to face? If not, how private are these televist communications?
07 Oct 2007 at 05:08 pm | #
Frightening shades of George Lucas’ THX1138, in which the title character seeks solace in a video confessional. He bows his head before a large Jesus-like image and pours out his heart. The robot voice responds in a pre-determined loop of bromide responses with no correlation to the pauses or sentence completions of THX:
http://www.thx-1138.org/ton/thumbnails-9.html
“I understand”
“could you be more specific?”
“My time is yours”
Lucas’ world is set in the 25th century. I guess Hamilton and Butler County are 400 years ahead of time.
http://imdb.com/title/tt0066434/
07 Oct 2007 at 05:45 pm | #
No, it would allow properly credential ministers. What concern of yours is it if someone becomes a minister? This is America.
07 Oct 2007 at 06:14 pm | #
So, I just want to understand the position of the anti-jail group.
You want to keep the status quo. That is, continue to feed the prison industrial complex (which you claim, and I agree, has an interest in incarcarating as many people as possible) by paying the Corrections Corporation of America rent for Queensgate. And further, continue to pay Butler County, that allows only video visits which according to you violates a prisoner’s right to practice their religion, to house Hamilton County’s overflow.
Have you all lost your ability to think rationally?
07 Oct 2007 at 06:15 pm | #
No?
Dean - Anyone can become a ‘properly credentialed minister’ on-line in 5 minutes are less. I am not so concerned about anyone becoming a minister. But it seems the purpose of not allowing face to face visitation is to prevent materials getting snuck into the jail by visitors.
07 Oct 2007 at 06:52 pm | #
Could these headlines get any more ridiculous? They scream of desperation,
07 Oct 2007 at 08:42 pm | #
What?
Another something that DeWine has forgoten to speak about?
JFD asks, “Will God be allowed to visit in the new jail?”
Well I’ll answer that… God is within you JFD! Go and see for yourself! When was the last time you visited the jail JFD?
There is only one JFD… JC… MEP… Funnelcake… GOD… would Sheriff Leis let God in… Why isn’t DeWine asking Leis if God is going to be allowed in the jail?
Isn’t Simon Leis a Catholic? Well he better start acting like one and allow God in wherever God wants to go!!!
Leis loves to parade tanks and warlike things around Cincinnati. And what does DeWine say? Nothing!!!!!!
I would like to see DeWine ask Leis by way an editorial in the Enquirer these following questions…
“Mr. Leis, does God wear a badge?”
“Mr. Leis, does God sit behind the bars you make?”
“Mr. Leis, does God wear underwear on a cross made of wood?”
“Mr. Leism was God ever convicted of a crime?”
“Mr. Leis, why didn’t you stop a child from being placed in a soundproof room when a child was abused in Cincinnati?”
Mr. Leis, go ahead and sue me for calling you to the floor!!! Because I say that your Department, Mr. Leis, threatened to stick a child in a soundproof room when a child cried that violence was being directed at the child.
Remember Marcus in Anderson Township? Rememberv at the same time a child crying out because violence was happening before Marcus was found dead. More of this community needs to know the level of God that Leis finds so needing of truth… does Leis know a God that embraces and frees in love or does he know one that one captures, isolates, kicks to the ground and wraps in blankets headed for a hell that is as hot as a chimney stack??????
God better be allowed into Simon’s jail… Leis and DeWine better clear this one up… and Leis better apologize to God and the rest of this community for the abuse that is reported but goes unproperly ivestigated by his deputies.
There is one promise that I’ll give the people of Hamilton County that have had their fill with Leis and his warlike things…
God’s golden shore is not one that is run by a gravedigger!
Believe me, I’ve been there and saw what it’s like.
The Dean asks, “Should innocent people be denied the free access to practicing their religion?”
I ask should those like Jesus, a convicted criminal, be denied the free access to practice their religion or be visited by people like a preacher man or his mother or like Hinklemueller says, “The whole church choir?”
Hey Simon… “Have you all lost your ability to think rationally?” Cincysuz… I don’t think this community’s judges, lawyers, cops, deputies, and especially our sheriff ever had a problem with not thinking rationally.
You know Cincysuz, I’ll bet you that some of them believe it to be second nature to think like a goon.
This is worth repeating… “One of the items in the so-called “Comprehensive Safety Plan” is video visitation. As explained earlier in The Cincinnati Beacon, this would prevent in-person visits to the inmates, even from family members. The Beacon has recently learned that video visitation is already being used in the Butler County jail, and not only family members but also members of the clergy are restricted from meeting the inmates.”
Has Leis lost his soul or is he just wishing that those incarcerated in his jail lose theirs? Why does Leis hate the people of Hamilton County?
Jesus.... where is the Catholic Church on this?
Hey Pilarczyk? WTF?
07 Oct 2007 at 10:28 pm | #
Dean, one of these days when the terrorists fire random shots at your house you’ll certainly think differently. Certainly you’d want justice if the terrorists were dealing dope & engaging in drive by gunfire if your kid was out in the yard. Oh, you’d be screaming like a stuck pig. Say a terrorist injured or raped your woman. I don’t think you would be so softy & ensure they had a low, low bond & restoration of their rights to continue engaging in criminal conduct while their case go thru the Courts.
Anon 13 is absolutely correct. When one makes the choice to violate the law, that individual has given up certain rights. I get sick & tired of these criminals violating my basic civil rights to freedom, peaceable enjoyment & safety in my neighborhood.
When a criminal violates the community trust & goodness is some way, they deserve to lose their freedoms that they stole from the neighborhood where they engaged in unlawful activity.
Jails across the country are using video visits & more are going online each day. It’s safer & saves the taxpayers a lot of money. The county can reduce the number of law enforcement needed to monitor & work the jails. I highly doubt anyone’s religious rights will be violated. If these clowns in the jail were so deeply religious convicted, they wouldn’t be engaging in criminal behaviors. Another weak assed platitude.
I don’t believe lawyer visits will be negatively impacted as there’s a whole host of laws from the Federal Supremes all the way down that protect this criminal right to free access of legal representation. Criminals have enough rights; it’s the victims that never recover anything including their dignity & peaceful feelings.
So Dean, the next time you want to spout off about criminals, perhaps you need to think about your kid & your woman. You must live in Disneyland.
08 Oct 2007 at 12:01 am | #
Breaking point - I think both sides could argue the 2 hour special tonight about the prison situation in America, or more specifically California. But it appears to me tha Kopple’s point was - without programs and services, the prison population will grow and the typical congestion of the system is those who do less horrific offenses, who do not get treatment while in jail that necessitates them returning, overwhelmingly.
Kopple also said that without a change in the vote of the public - the status quo will remain the same and the force wanting only heavy handed incarceration without services and tough laws that don’t reflect the genuine severity of the offenses, will result in a continuation of the industrial prison complex of despair.
It seems, that Kopple’s report says we need a change. He talks about prison conditions and the need for humane treatment of those in jail.
It was a really insightful program and I think it speaks well to the need to pass these reforms to our criminal justice system locally
No matter what side you’re on - I think Kopple has a pretty good grip on the reality and is pretty well respected
08 Oct 2007 at 02:25 am | #
Amendment VIII- excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishment inflicted. From the Constitution of the United States, The Bill of Rights. Vera Z come4
08 Oct 2007 at 07:36 am | #
#22: “JFD asks, “Will God be allowed to visit in the new jail?”
Peter AD, I asked if there was one, after the Beacon asked if it would be allowed to visit.
08 Oct 2007 at 09:37 am | #
Do most of you people posting here have ANY idea of the difference between prison and jail? Between convicted and awaiting trial or arraignment? Between murder and littering?
08 Oct 2007 at 07:36 pm | #
Yeah, why do you ask? Don’t you know the difference? The one thing that’s the same is that criminals who are violating the community’s trust by committing acts that are against the law, littering included, are kept behind bars.
Littering is a crime against communities. The lazy slugs drop their junk & then the neighborhood has to go behind them & pick it up. Slaves & stepinfetchits for no-load criminals. Oh, and they so love to watch the residents clean up their messes. The slurs they make are absolutely profound. If a community didn’t pick up after them, then it has the propensity to become a slum, thereby attracting more criminality.
Get it now, Janis? Good. I thought you would.
08 Oct 2007 at 10:18 pm | #
Thanks, Jones! You must be talking about the slugs tailgating at the Bengals game last week and leaving tons of trash and urine drenched fence lines. How many of them are in jail? And then the corporate polluters that foul the waters and air, and really litter the environment. I guess you are working hard to put them in jail too!
And of course all activities that break the law should be punished equally despite their severity or whether they are legally considered misdemeanors or felonies.
Sure hope you don’t get a traffic ticket, you might have to spend weeks in jail awaiting arraignment.
I am absolutely amazed that those so vehement about punishing law breakers are themselves breaking laws by denying people their rights under the constitution.
10 Oct 2007 at 04:17 pm | #
god is NOT GREAT!
it’s a screwed up iron age myth that has caused more harm than good.
keep this moronic concept out of tax paid institutions.
ya give up lots of rights when you go to jail.....we don’t need no kool-aid drinking god pimps feeding the inmates their f...d up swill.
god caused 2,537,352 deaths in the bible (not counting the flood) the devil caused 10.........seems like the devil’s the better of these 2 fictional characters.