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Saturday, April 05, 2008
Those against streetcars, rumbling in the distance
Posted by The Dean of Cincinnati
There are some rumblings around town—a great many people, in fact, from all across the political spectrum, who are not sure if increased government spending should be dedicated to a very short streetcar loop so people in river-front condos can socialize without having a car. Is this really the most pressing issue facing the City? Is this really what it means to serve the citizens of Cincinnati? Do residents of College Hill care if The Banks hooks up with OTR?
A vocal minority, backed by business interests and politicians, have insisted that Cincinnati needs a streetcar. And if anyone dares to pause, to question, or to critique the concepts—these victims are attacked viciously by the streetcar advocates, who would love nothing more than to watch their property value increase on the backs of the rest of the City.
But I have seen the writing on the wall. I have seen the writing.
Yes, brother and sisters, I see a day coming. A day when Westside whites and Avondale blacks join arms in solidarity against the fast track to a streetcar train wreck. I see an unlikely coalition derailing business efforts to spend taxpayer money on a big dollar item that will only benefit the few. I see a new day coming in Cincinnati.
I see a new Cincinnati emerging. A Cincinnati where citizens have learned how to organize, how to ignore differences to focus on similarities. A Cincinnati where the big money influence of special interests no longer rolls all over the spirit of the regular folks. You know who I mean—not the ones with expensive downtown condos, nor the ones with big pockets for the politicians, nor the people who are friends with the well-connected. Just regular people—some richer, some poorer—but all sharing that desire to see a City shaped by their interests, the interests of the people.
The politicians continue not to put people first. I think the time is coming when the people have decided to cut in line. And I think the streetcar line is the next one on the list.
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06 Apr 2008 at 03:15 am | #
I have nothing specific against street cars, but I just don’t think it’s economically justified.
If they can seriously make a REAL case that laying down street car lines will provide a better ROI than some dandied up metro buses I’ll bite. But as of yet, I am still waiting for that case to be made.
06 Apr 2008 at 08:31 am | #
Wow, what misguided, flowery verbiage you have.
Detractors = Victims
Streetcar Advocates = Vicious Attackers
The Riverfront To Uptown = Very Short
Energy Conscious Urban Living = Socializing Without Having A Car
If you don’t stop we’re going to be forced to re-write the whole damn dictionary.
06 Apr 2008 at 01:38 pm | #
I’d like to discuss this with any opponents who have actually ridden one of the modern streetcar systems. I’ve been pro rail, but was somewhat of a streetcar skeptic until I rode them a few months ago. There is something counter-intuitive about them, because they are not really about getting away as fast as possible, but about making places more useable and walkable.
06 Apr 2008 at 09:40 pm | #
I’ve ridden cable cars in San Francisco and have ridden streetcars extensively in Europe. I even like the older systems in Hamburg (now gone) and Lisbon. I’ve ridden the modern systems in Stuttgart and Zurich. Part of the Stuttgart system goes underground, much like the famous “Cincinnati subway” was supposed to. Although not streetcars, I have also ridden the Paris Metro, the London “tube,” the Hamburg S- and U-Bahns, the Tokyo subway, and the Tokyo monorail. I have loved them all.
But I cannot cost-justify such an expensive system here, especially as proposed. And I say this in spite of my love for streetcars.
06 Apr 2008 at 11:02 pm | #
additional commentary here: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,9.3570.html
07 Apr 2008 at 09:00 am | #
Organizing an opposition isn’t really “ignoring differences and focusing on similarities”.
There are real arguments that need to be made and when it is organized into camps these arguments are dismissed as propaganda from one side or the other. It would be interesting to see a real presidential style debate/ town meeting on this issue, where people have to act decently and present sound arguments to each others faces so we could get passed the bickering and anonymous slandering.
07 Apr 2008 at 10:36 am | #
Dellison, you wasted my time with your suggestion. Just what on that link was worthwhile?
This issue is another reason that we need a district elections. The people need a government structure that allows for them to be heard with confidence that message is reflective of the actual population’s views. As it is, the zealots give the impression that they speak for more of the population than they actually do. The zealots have the incentive that they can possibly get all of us to pay for their stupid convictions. While the majority is busy making this economy work and is being distracted by something often referred to as “having a life”.
These zealots are nothing more than closet socialists. This is especially dangerous because the so-called leadership in our local government is made up of political prostitutes, who satisfy their egos by pandering to votes.
By the way, I thought the Dean’s article was well written and significant.
07 Apr 2008 at 03:14 pm | #
“These zealots are nothing more than closet socialists.”
That’s pretty constructive. It really adds a lot to the debate. Thank you for wasting my time.
07 Apr 2008 at 08:19 pm | #
Light rail (or any system that actually bypasses street traffic flows) is a different matter to be considered more favorably in my opinion.
A Street Car that has to deal with the same traffic as cars is nothing but Decoration. Shut down some car traffic lanes & then we’ll talk.
07 Apr 2008 at 09:35 pm | #
Funnelcake!
That is a good point.
But, if there is no demand, if the streetcar or light rail is running empty or near empty, it doesn’t matter.
I wonder where are the numbers that show what numbers of people-trips that are needed to get a critical mass of people from one end of the route to the other end. That seems to be a basic question in doing a feasibility evaluation. In that there is virtually no demand today, a better objective would be to get the people into the areas served first. There will be time to design a build a system after a substantial amount of people move into the areas. I have a feeling that we won’t be around when and if they do.
07 Apr 2008 at 11:06 pm | #
The streetcar issue needs to go to a vote of the people. We should decide.
08 Apr 2008 at 01:51 am | #
"some rumblings around town"...."a great many people"....."A vocal minority”
Any proof to back up your silly diatribe?
“Westside whites and Avondale blacks join arms in solidarity against the fast track to a streetcar train wreck....a new Cincinnati emerging....citizens have learned how to organize, how to ignore differences.....”
Yea, you have a dream. Well, I want some of what ever you are smoking. What was this, you attempt to make an MLK speech? well, MLK you ain’t. By the way, you are still a very, very white guy. Lilly white in fact.
08 Apr 2008 at 02:22 am | #
Some food for thought for those who believe that our highways are a natural market outcome:
http://www.governing.com/articles/0804trans.htm
08 Apr 2008 at 09:55 am | #
This is the best comment of the thread. If we are supposed to have a democratic form of government, the people should decide and not the special interest socialists or egotistic politicians. Delegating authority to a few people that have no special skills, education or intelligence is an an attempt to abrogate citizen responsibility.
The form of governance that exists in this city needs to be changed. The first step would be all-district elections. If we were to have a form of governance that better involved the people, we wouldn’t be having this discussion now.
Dieter
08 Apr 2008 at 10:22 am | #
"The streetcar issue needs to go to a vote of the people. We should decide.”
Cincyjeff (Jeff Capell) lives in Blue Ash, not Cincinnati. Jeff, you aren’t entitled to didly squat. You won’t have a say in a vote. Why don’t you worry about what happens out in suburbland, and let those of us who actually live in the city of Cincinnati worry about what happens here. Like taking another lowball ‘settlements’ for one of your crackpot lawsuits.
08 Apr 2008 at 11:50 am | #
Cincyjeff, pwned. Ha!
08 Apr 2008 at 02:05 pm | #
We do not live in a direct democracy and as a result we do not get a direct say in government. The way our gov’t. runs is through representative democracy, we elect people to represent us, people like those on city council. It’s the way this shithole country runs, you want it different, start a revolution. As for me I’m heading to Europe ASAP!
08 Apr 2008 at 02:57 pm | #
Cincyjeff is right. Anon 10:22 and Ouch might ask themselves where the money will come from. After all, not only do proppnants not have enough money to build the system (not even close), but their own projections show a $2 million dollar operating loss each and every year.
Most likely, the money will come from a Countywide “regional transportation” property tax which will replace the City of Cincinnati’s contribution to SORTA, allowing them to use that money to help fund the streetcar boondoggle. Portune is already pitching this idea. So, much to your chagrin, he will likely have a vote.
Besides, don’t lament the fact that suburbanites don’t care about the urban core in one breath and in the very next breath lambast a suburbanite for showing interest in a City issue just because their opinion differs from yours.
08 Apr 2008 at 05:04 pm | #
“This is the best comment of the thread. If we are supposed to have a democratic form of government, the people should decide and not the special interest socialists or egotistic politicians. Delegating authority to a few people that have no special skills, education or intelligence is an an attempt to abrogate citizen responsibility.
The form of governance that exists in this city needs to be changed. The first step would be all-district elections. If we were to have a form of governance that better involved the people, we wouldn’t be having this discussion now.”
These sort of statements show that you have no formal understanding of how a city government works. As stated above we (the people/citizens) elect representatives who we feel best represent our interests in the city on issues such as streetcars. It is then their job to do the best job possible to represent our interests in thousands of different issues every year. One of the main reasons it is done this way is because many of the issues they are required to make decisions on require knowledge and expertise that the general public does not have. If we had to vote on every single issue that the city council is responsible for NOTHING would ever get done and many many BAD decisions would be made based on a popular vote that is generally uneducated and fueled strictly by personal, biased information and opinions.
Issues such as public transportation are to be made by people who know what they are doing. City council members do a whole lot more than just vote. They research, they talk to experts, and they keep the opinions of the general population in mind as they make decisions that affect the city as a whole. Thankfully we have highly educated and skilled professionals running the city. If you don’t agree with their decisions then it is your responsibility to become more politically active during election season and make sure that your ideal representative is elected to council.
In my opinion the streetcars are a very smart idea for the city of Cincinnati. A big part of many of the problems that downtown Cincinnati and OTR have faced over the last 50 years or so is related to the fact that our city’s urban core has become abandoned due to migration to the suburbs. This is a phenomenon that has occurred all over the country and is related to multiple factors such as racism, “the ideal american lifestyle”, automobiles and many other factors. The bottom line is that the city was mostly abandoned and became a place where crime and poverty could flourish. Whats now beginning to happen is many people (especially those of younger generations) no longer want to live in the suburbs and depend on automobiles for their every transportation need. Successful cities all over the country have realized that a healthy urban core with a thriving population and good public transportation is key to sustaining a healthy, attractive city.
Our current city government has realized that its time to get on board with what many other cities have already figured out years ago. Its time to provide people with a downtown where they can live, work, and play. An important component of making downtown more attractive to live is providing a good reliable, permanent transportation system that will spark interest in personal investment, business investment and tourism. Streetcars can and will accomplish these things very well as has been proven many times in other cities. People will actually WANT to come downtown for fun. People will actually WANT to move to Cincinnati and live downtown. Everyone will benefit from it.
I’m thankful that we finally have a city government that believes in securing a strong urban core. They have already taken many steps towards this goal and I believe they are going to continue to do so with the streetcars.
08 Apr 2008 at 07:22 pm | #
Schneider!
The guy is hung up on the premise that libertarian and republicans love the roads for cars and hate the rails and the writer is taking something out of context to appear to be making some revelation.
The objective is to get people who need to be in another place from one place to another efficiently. It makes no difference what is used to accomplish that end so long as it is the most cost effective. And one needs to consider all of the costs.
I don’t know what is meant by “natural market outcome”; can you explain it?
08 Apr 2008 at 09:25 pm | #
Natural market outcome.
Streetcar critics often say the the heavy-hand of government is what is driving this project, like that’s not the case with just about every transportation project you could name.
Of the 47,000-mile Interstate Highway System, how many miles would have been built were it not for the Federal government’s deciding where the freeways would go, condemning the right-of-way, writing the specs, deciding where the interchanges go, using average-cost rather than marginal-cost pricing, and then not charging enough to ensure the IHS is in good condition and carries traffic smoothly?
There is nothing natural or free-market about that. It’s just because we all drive that we accept it. So something different like the streetcar comes along, and because it’s not in the mainstream, a much more rigorous standard for evaluation is adopted by crtics who, if they really considered what had to happen to get them to and from work every day, they might have much more to be critical about.
Cost-effectiveness is not a good measure for evaluating transportation projects. What you want to have is the greatest difference between the cost of a project and its benefits, discounted for the time-value of money. Example: I walk home most nights. Doing so is fantastically cost-effective—a little shoe-leather, that’s all, and sooner or later I get where I want to go. But it takes longer and at my wage-rate—probably at just about anyone’s wage rate—any economist would conclude my taking a half-hour to walk home is a real loser as a means of mobility. I do it anyway.
08 Apr 2008 at 11:09 pm | #
John!
You say cost effectiveness is not a good measure then you continue by describing parts of cost effectiveness.
Your example of cost effectiveness of walking home is far from complete. You fail to mention the benefits of your choice to walk home. There is the physical exercise, there is the psychological benefits of winding down and being able to exercise your mind and thoughts, including planning. These things should be done at one time or another.Unless you have another job or commitment, what else would you be doing with that time? On the other hand,if you need to be going to another job or have to do a number of tasks, then walking home is costing you more than shoe leather. There are many collateral things that affect the cost-effectiveness of such a decision.
It takes me seven minutes to jump into my car and be downtown; it takes me more that seven minutes to even walk to the bus stop that is less than 1000 feet from my house as the crow flies. Then I may have to wait 30 minutes for the bus which will take longer to get downtown than my car and the bus will seldom take me to the place where I need to be. There is good reason that the world prefers the car. The vast majority of the users of public transportation are poor and have no choice.
There are many other solutions to transportation needs than a car, bus or streetcar.
As to the Interstate Highway System, the answers are much longer than you might think. They made so many mistakes and they continue to make the mistakes. You ask how many miles would be built if not for the Federal Government. I doubt there would have been as many built so fast, but they would have been built. Do you know that Flagler and a few others had old Route 27 built from Detroit to Florida to sell cars in Detroit and land in Florida? Do you know that Montgomery Road was a toll road and there was a toll station at Hewitt and Woodburn in Evanston. There were reasons that the Interstates were built and the reasons were many, some good and some bad.
08 Apr 2008 at 11:31 pm | #
J says:
08 Apr 2008 at 05:04 pm | # a lot of crap.
He is of the city hall mentality and sound like he just fell off the hay wagon. I am glad that he responded because he epitomizes that city hall mentality to a tee. I would respond to every line that he wrote but it would be giving him dignity that he doesn’t deserve and it would take longer than it would take to explain to Bush what he did wrong.
I almost fell off my stool when he felt he had to explain to me how a city government works. What a twit!
One of his sentences represent his naivety: As stated above we (the people/citizens) elect representatives who we feel best represent our interests in the city on issues such as streetcars.
I wonder if we were to ask every voter in the last election where any candidate stood on this issue or any other issue for that matter, how many could tell us where the nine individual council members stood on any specific issue. I think one percent might be pushing it.
09 Apr 2008 at 06:21 am | #
You’re right, Dieter, and you proved my point. If you consider all the benefits of my decision to walk, rather than a simple cost-effective measure of the monetized costs to move me over a given distance, it’s a reasonable thing to do for all the reason you gave and more. But what you are describing is an economic benefit/cost analysis, not cost-effectiveness, which is really more of an engineering concept.
This is why the economists studying the Cincinnati Streetcar included the benefits of the economic development likely to occur because of it, which is an important benefit. If the streetcar is really successful, people living in the area served by it will end up traveling less, not more. Most transportation economists would tell you that reducing Vehicle Miles Traveled is going to be the most important aspect of our nation’s transportation policy going forward. Think about it.
09 Apr 2008 at 07:01 pm | #
Dieterschmied...You’re way out in left field man. Thankfully people like you aren’t capable of gaining any significant power in society because you spend all your time on the internet coming up with absurd political theories.
“I wonder if we were to ask every voter in the last election where any candidate stood on this issue or any other issue for that matter, how many could tell us where the nine individual council members stood on any specific issue. I think one percent might be pushing it.”
So if you’re saying that most voters aren’t even capable of doing the research about the people they elect to represent them, what makes you think they’d be capable of making appropriate decisions on matters such as streetcars or other city budget issues?
“The form of governance that exists in this city needs to be changed. The first step would be all-district elections. If we were to have a form of governance that better involved the people, we wouldn’t be having this discussion now.”
You’re not making any sense at all.
09 Apr 2008 at 07:56 pm | #
John Schneider!
The problem in the figures to justify the Streetcar is based on a dream and they are not realistic. I fail to see the nexus between a streetcar and the level of economic development that is needed or desired. Mr Patton came up with an idea of using buses with some kind of lane markings as a test; what is wrong with his idea? You are not recognizing the probable dynamics based on history and current trends. What makes you think that a silly streetcar is going to draw people? How is the streetcar different than a bus for function?
As to the objective of reducing vehicle miles traveled, the only thing that might stop it is five dollars a liter for gasoline. We are already experiencing reduced vehicle miles traveled in the area of going to and from work. Businesses are following the suburban growth is one of the reasons. You need to consider the non-essential miles traveled because that is the only area where the savings are to be had. The streetcar will have no significant effect on miles traveled whether it is work or pleasure. Who specifically do you think will be riding the streetcar and why and how often? Getting people to come back to the city and giving up their plot of land is like trying to put toothpaste back into the tube.
Even if there was to be gasoline at a cost of five dollars per liter, the people would not move back to this city. I believe that they would build new mini-cities. They don’t want to live with the people that they believe to live in this city. They also want new. They want the image and life-style. Today one can already get just as many choices, if not more, in the suburbs.
09 Apr 2008 at 08:08 pm | #
J says:
09 Apr 2008 at 07:01 pm | #
Dieterschmied...You’re way out in left field man. Thankfully people like you aren’t capable of gaining any significant power in society because you spend all your time on the internet coming up with absurd political theories.
Well Junior, you be mostly right. Absurd is what is needed and as long as you and the herd continue doing the same old thing over and over when it still isn’t working, then nothing will change. You know that I have just described insanity, don’t you?
Voters are capable of doing the research but the reality is that they don’t.
I am not surprised that you can’t make sense of my ideas. Maybe by the time you are twenty it might be a little clearer but I am afraid you will still be confused.
10 Apr 2008 at 06:07 am | #
"Absurd is what is needed and as long as you and the herd continue doing the same old thing over and over when it still isn’t working, then nothing will change.”
Actually, by being against one of the most intelligent, progressive ideas the city has ever come up with you are the one who is at risk of keeping everything the same and resisting change. Your idea of being progressive and making real change is “why don’t we use buses with marked lanes”?? What the hell is a bus lane going to do??? Obviously buses don’t work and if you’d do your research on why streetcars do work you’d see that a bus with a painted lane on the street is the biggest waste of time you could possibly think of. THAT would be doing the same old thing over and over again.
Streetcars = fixed tracks...Fixed tracks are like subway lines or light rail lines, they represent a stable/permanent investment. To investors who are looking for a place to put their money, a business right next to a streetcar line where lots of people live is a very safe bet. They know that as long as there’s a streetcar there, people will be there on a regular basis.
An area with a bus line that could change over night does not represent a good place for investment.
The same argument goes for individuals looking for a place to live downtown. If a couple of people have a choice between buying a condo in a city that has access to good, permanent, public transit versus a city that has only a bus service, the streetcar city is going to win everytime.
Investing in good public transit is an incredibly smart move for downtown and OTR. The OTR neighborhood is set up just like many neighborhoods in Brooklyn or Manhattan. It was designed with public transit in mind. That will make it a very walkable, livable place for people to be. If you don’t see the intelligence in this plan, then you obviously aren’t interested in making OTR a place where people actually want to live and work.
I think the reason there are still people against this plan is simply due to not knowing how nice it is to live in a city with a real, functional, urban environment. Perhaps spending some time in New York, Chicago, or Washing D.C. would help people see why there are so many people really excited about streetcars.
15 Apr 2008 at 09:58 am | #
I apologize for responding late to this. I did not realize that my idea was being discussed.
I proposed this because many of the proponents of the streetcar project say that one of its advantages is that one can see the tracks and therefore have an idea of where the streetcar is going. Having lived in a city with streetcars (Hamburg, Germany) I agree that this is a significant advantage. Hamburg also had well-marked bus- and streetcar stops with schhedules posted. I had a city map that not only had all the streets but also marked the bus and streetcar routes along with the stops.
Compare this to Cincinnati. It is very hard to figure out the system. And to get a map? When they last changed the system and dropped routes I asked for a map and was told none were available. Several months later I finally got one.
When a bus route is abandoned or changed, I generally see the bus stop sign still up and maybe even an advertising bench. Anybody unfortunate enough to be fooled by the signage will have a long time to wait. This even fooled me once, but fortunately I was near enough to the new route that I saw the bus turn before it got to me. So I walked a few blocks to the bus.
I HAVE lived in a city with a good public transportation system and have visited many others. Cincinnati can’t even operate its bus system properly, yet they want over $100 million for what amounts to a 2-mile line. It is way over-priced compared to what I have seen other cities pay for streetcars.
The huge cost, combined with an on-going operating loss, means that the bus service will probably be cut back in order to keep the streetcar system going. As “j says” says, it does represent a permament investment. Therefore it will not stop there if it doesn’t work. Already it joins millions in subsidies to build or rehab up-scale condos—3CDC gets $50,000 per unit, in fact. But why should we pour hundreds of millions of tax dollars into Over-the-Rhine, tax dollars that come from other communities? Why should other neighborhoods have their services cut back so that a small group of relatively well-off people can ride a streetcar from their subsidized condos to downtown?
As I wrote earlier, I love streetcars. I with this proposal made sense, but it doesn’t. It merely represents yet another subsidy to 3CDC.
15 Apr 2008 at 11:14 pm | #
mep’s transportation logic will ensure the only transportation in cincinnati is the private automobile.
16 Apr 2008 at 07:29 am | #
That is a silly comment. I have spoken many times about how we need to have better control over public transportation and how Cincinnati city council needs to give a damn. That is the first requirement. If they don’t care about how the bus system is run, how does one expect them to do a good job on the streetcar?
I have suggested many improvements to the existing bus sytem, several of them in my last comment. I have suggested trying to get Federal funding (shock! horror! The city REFUSES to consider Federal funding for the OTR streetcar line! And why would that be?) I have suggested combining a streetcar line with the replacement of the I-71/I-75 bridge over the Ohio and trying to get Federal funds that way. I have suggested using much more cost-effective electric trolley busses. I have objected to the city spending tens of millions of dollars for new parking garages in and near downtown. The city says we need streetcars and then shovels out money for new parking garages? Makes no sense, but that is exactly what is happening.
Basically, I have said that the first segment of a streetcar system must be a success or else no more segments will be built.
Instead of trowing slurs against people who want the city to spend money on public transportation wisely, the streetcar proponents should do a real study and try to convince us with facts.
16 Apr 2008 at 08:52 pm | #
Mr. Patton!
Don’t get too concerned with Junior’s comments. I think he is still a minor. I think he still believes in the tooth fairy.
Dieter