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Sunday, March 04, 2007
Fountain Square Garage: Handicapped Accessibility Analysis
Posted by The Dean of Cincinnati
We are having some trouble getting this video uploaded to Google Video, so here is a file through Blip.TV—which has given users some bugs in the past. We will work to resolve this issue soon—and at that time we will feature this work more prominently. In the meanwhile, we wanted to make this available as soon as possible.
Update - 3/5/07: In the beginning and end of the video, we talk about handrails and ADA guidelines. We seem to have been in error on those two small points.
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04 Mar 2007 at 07:23 pm | #
In the part where you guys show that a handicapped individual would have to move around to the other side in order to get on the curb is that lane a one way? Because from what I see on the video it is not. Why would a handicapped person go around the corner in the lane of on-coming traffic? Wouldn’t they be smart enough to stay with the flow of traffic while going around? I’m just trying to analyze this as much as you are. In all honesty there should be a curb cut on the other side, but I don’t like that you somewhat degrade the intelligence of an individual who is handicapped. If that is one way then you have a definite point, but otherwise I believe you guys are being overly picky.
Also as it has been said before the architects designed this parking garage, not 3CDC. Yes I’m sure 3CDC does ultimately approve the design from what I understand they trust the integrity of the architectural firm that has been selected. Why don’t you find out who the architects were who designed it? Give them some shit and do some research on other projects that they have done. See if they are the one’s who are being awful to the handicapped. I’m sure that members of the 3CDC board have handicapped relatives and friends, so to say they are against handicapped people is ridiculous. There is no way they would put people’s lives in danger on purpose.
04 Mar 2007 at 09:10 pm | #
"is that lane a one way?”
Yes it is Robert. Haven’t you ever been to that garage?
“Because from what I see on the video it is not. Why would a handicapped person go around the corner in the lane of on-coming traffic?”
What are you seeing in the video Robert? Are we watching the same video?
“In all honesty there should be a curb cut on the other side, but I don’t like that you somewhat degrade the intelligence of an individual who is handicapped.”
Their point was that there should be a cut curb. They didn’t degrade the intelligence of an idividual who is handicapped. Their video makes me question the intelligence of 3CDC. I think it’s a question of public safety, not being picky. You as a former and probably a future council candidate you should be concerned with the safety of our handicapped citizens and not with protecting the “honor” of 3CDC and fixing the blame for them.
We gave 3CDC a lot of money to fix the garage. They have taken on the responsiblity. Do you know how much money the city has turned over to them?
“I’m sure that members of the 3CDC board have handicapped relatives and friends, so to say they are against handicapped people is ridiculous. There is no way they would put people’s lives in danger on purpose.”
Are you really sure the members of the 3CDC board have handicapped relatives and friends? If not then isn’t it ridiculous to say that? If so why haven’t they addressed these issues? I bet the architects don’t have handicapped friends or relatives either, if they did, they must not want them to go to Fountain Square.
3CDC is made up of CEOs of big corporations like P&G. Corporations are by law supposed to maximize profits. That means putting profits before people. P&G is aware that they are major polluters and that that hurts people, but that doesn’t stop them does it? I guess that doesn’t make for a good stump speech does it?
04 Mar 2007 at 11:41 pm | #
I have to side with Robert here. It seems that it would be the architects responsibility by law to make sure they follow ADA regulations. Why do you hire architects? Because they are the professionals that are supposed to know these things. If you can’t trust a professional architect then what’s the point in hiring them? The point is, I think this handicap accessibility analysis should be aimed more at the designers, engineers, and architects who made these decisions. Why are we holding them accountable then? 3CDC CEO’s and other big wigs I’m sure are NOT well versed in the code. They shouldn’t have to be. That’s the architect’s job. I think someone said it before, but this seems to be taking a shot at 3CDC rather than getting to the root of the problem here. It seems to me that this story was developed more out of a hatred for 3CDC than a concern for the handicap. Doesn’t feel right to me at all.
05 Mar 2007 at 01:28 am | #
"In all honesty there should be a curb cut on the other side”
I agree with Robert there.
“Why do you hire architects? Because they are the professionals that are supposed to know these things.”
A better question is why did we hire 3CDC?
3CDC bought Mayor Luken and the last two councils in order to shove their projects down our throats because the public rejects their plans. 3CDC captured our annual garage revenue for the next 39 years which will exceed $100 million. (That’s quite a bargain when you consider 3CDC only paid $7.5 million for it(well actually $3.5) 3CDC has deceived the public about how much their project is costing us taxpayers. Margaret Buchanan’s Enquirer helped push this massive fraud. (Thanks Bitch!!!)
3CDC made parking spaces smaller for handicapped people and there aren’t as many as there used to be so 3CDC can maximize their new revenue stream.(Damn you Smitherman! It was supposed to be a 50 year lease!) 3CDC hasn’t improved the garage or the square. 3CDC doesn’t care about what the public thinks, their crap sessions are to sell the public their projects, minimize the publics input and pacify people.
3CDC is our new, unaccountable, secretive, facist government. 3CDC has given us gentrification in OTR and the privatization of our public spaces and resources.
But lets not criticize them just because they are in charge of these projects. Just because 3CDC gives huge amounts of money to the politicians to push their agenda we shouldn’t be skeptical. Just because 3CDC is making the decisions about who gets hired and where the money goes doesn’t mean we should express our complaints about them.
No, I think the Beacon conspired to create the leaks so there would be mold and chipped paint. All this noise about codes and what handicapped people need to be safe and patrons need to find their way around the garage isn’t about the public interest. You’re trying to hold 3CDC accountable and that’s just a cheap shot isn’t it Mike? Doesn’t feel right to me at all either.
Dean, you ought to be ashamed of this. You call this journalism? You’ll never get a job at the Enquirer!!!
05 Mar 2007 at 06:27 am | #
3CDC is the entity in charge. I direct my criticisms at them for that reason. They handle the money. They decided to do all these things. But to whom are they responsible?
If 3CDC cannot be trusted to coordinate their development projects effectively, then the blame rests on them. If 3CDC decides to take it up with those they hired, that is their business.
Presumably, 3CDC knows what they want. If I want my house painted bright orange—and if it turns out that is in violation of a neighborhood code—are you saying my neighbors should complain about the painter, and not about me?
05 Mar 2007 at 06:28 am | #
Yes, Robert, as answered above, the lane is one-way. You go down on the West side’s two lanes, then up on the East side’s two lanes. If the lanes looked wide, you must have been seeing a part where cars were not parked along the North wall, which would visually make the thing appear much smaller.
05 Mar 2007 at 09:30 am | #
"Yes it is Robert. Haven’t you ever been to that garage?”
No I haven’t been to the garage. I do not own a car, so why would I have a need to go there. I was the only candidate in 2005 that when talking about public transportation actually used it.
“Because from what I see on the video it is not. Why would a handicapped person go around the corner in the lane of on-coming traffic?”
What are you seeing in the video Robert? Are we watching the same video?
Yes I am sure we are seeing the same video. There are no signs in the video labeling that as one way and since I have not been there I would only assume that it is two way. In rare occasions is a two way street labeled two way. Usually when a one way turns into a two way. I think I was pretty safe to assume two way in this case.
I’m not trying to defend 3CDC. In some cases they do look in the same direction I want to see Cincinnati go.
Do I completely agree with OTR? Probably not, but I would rather see some change there rather than more deaths and vacant buildings.
On the banks, I don’t think they are really a part of the project anymore, but I’m not completely sure.
The Fountain Square project has some obvious flaws as shown by the reporting here, but overall I think it will really enhance downtown Cincinnati and get people back down there.
Do I think this discussion should be completely focused on 3CDC? No, not at all. There is some accountability there, but the focus should switch to the architects, engineers, etc. Find out why they did the one handrail. If the Beacon is right, ask them when they plan on fixing it. Ask them if they will add proper curb cuts so that people’s lives won’t be in danger. Get out there fellas and do the dirty work you say no one else will.
05 Mar 2007 at 09:43 am | #
3CDC is supposed to be the “professionals” and the “experts.” But this is the same lame bullshit we heard from Mr. Pepper when we asked him about the $400,000 squandered on the Purple Bridge. We left it to the “experts” is just not good enough.
The problem here is the pattern of public deception that lies beneath the inferior workmanship and lack of attention to detail. In the beginning we had a leaky garage. We got 3CDC as the solution to the leaky garage, against the wishes of most people. And while they were at it why not just have them renovate OTR, was the popular thinking of Council at the time. Council, by and through their actions, have given away public property and are acting against the people. The Ohio Constitution states;
Simply put, all government of right originates with the People, is founded upon their will and is instituted solely for their good.The Constitutions also mandate that all public officers must swear or affirm oaths to uphold and support the Constitutions and the Rights of the People guaranteed therein, and must abide by those oaths in the performance of their official duties; yet the City Council and Mayor, in their normal customs and practices, demonstrated by and through their actions, perjure their oaths, and defy, deny and oppose the Constitutions and Rights guaranteed therein to the citizens of Cincinnati, Ohio.
These unlawful actions have been taken in the name of economic development and we are told it is for the good of the people. That begs the question, what people? Who benefits? The circular flow of money, from corporate welfare, to campaign contributions for favorable votes is corruption of the highest order. Add to that the cover of the newspaper of record to keep this scheme hidden and distort the truth places us all at risk of following Pittsburgh into bankruptcy court.
So being upset by this is normal for anybody that is awake enough to question what is going on and I applaud the Cincinnati Beacon for the follow-up on this and other projects.
05 Mar 2007 at 10:39 am | #
Dean,
It seems you direct criticism at 3CDC no matter what they do. I this case I think it’s miss directed. I agree there should be a curb cut. I took my little one downtown and was annoyed because I had a stroller. Regardless, at some point you must trust the professionals that you hire to recognize, design, and coordinate these things. This one’s on the designers.
05 Mar 2007 at 03:40 pm | #
Mike, it seems you deflect criticism away from 3CDC no matter how many things they screw up.
We hired 3CDC to deal with these problems. They took on a huge revenue stream and the responsibility for this project. Now their employees are trying to fix the blame.
Mike, you think that it’s the architects fault (who hired them?)and the Beacon’s fault. Who’s fault is that the new paint is chipping?
I wouldn’t want to hold 3CDC accountable for a project there in charge of or anything. (It must be the city’s fault, or the Westin’s fault or maybe the Beacon’s fault, or Bin Laden’s fault or Bush’s fault er I mean the Democrats fault.) Come to think of it, it is Council’s fault too.
Here’s a preview of the new song for tomorrow. Hey Hey Hoe Hoe 3CDCs got to go!
05 Mar 2007 at 04:36 pm | #
Are you sure about that? Did you ask the other candidates? If you didn’t, isn’t that a ridiculous thing to say? I think MEP uses public transportation and he was a candidate.
If you watch the video you can see that there is a tight blind corner. Can you imagine if a car was trying to come from the other direction? There would be several accidents a day.
"I’m not trying to defend 3CDC."Yes you are!
You say “there is some accountability there, but the focus should switch to the architects, engineers, etc”. Who’s etc? And why should the focus switch if there is some accountability there? Please tell us about 3CDCs accountability. What should they be held accountable for?
(Project delays? Cost Over runs? Deceiving the public about actual costs to the public? Missing water feature?) Anything?
In what cases does 3CDC look in the same direction you want to see Cincinnati grow? More privatization of public spaces? Higher parking rates? Less accountability?
Do you think the only option for OTR is giving 3CDC public funds to gentrify the neighborhood or “more deaths and vacant buildings”? Seriously?
You don’t think 3CDC should be held accountable for anything do you? Just the people at the bottom. The benefit of the doubt goes up and the blame goes down.
You just might have a future in politics after all. Keep kissing corporate ass Robert and one day those campaign contributtions will start rolling in. You might even get an endorsement from Margaret Buchanan’s Enquirer.
05 Mar 2007 at 05:07 pm | #
In response to Robert Wilson (#7):
Robert, it is 3CDC’s fault. They were hired to do the job. Just because they subcontracted it out doesn’t relieve them of responsibility. 3CDC signed A CONTRACT stating that ADA rules would be followed. They did not sign it under duress. They took on the obligation so they could earn money. If they hired someone else to help them with the ADA rules, then 3CDC has the option to go after them and make them pay for any problems they helped cause. But from what I’ve seen it’s so bad that I doubt if they did.
And it is City Council’s fault. They hired 3CDC to do the job without competitive bidding. They should have been checking up on how our millions of tax dollars are being spent and not just relying on press releases.
I do think it would be interesting to see the drawings as submitted to the city and see if they conform to what was actually built. But I don’t have the time to run down every thing that looks interesting. Hey! Why don’t YOU do it? Then you would find out who the architects were!
Also, since you brought it up:
That is not true. I also used and still use public transportation from time to time, and I talked about it a lot in 2005. I know at least one other candidate who used it a lot (I met him at the bus stop—imagine that!), though I do not remember how often he spoke about it.
05 Mar 2007 at 06:14 pm | #
I agree with Robert. I like the direction 3CDC is taking our City. Change is good, progress is good. I agree the handicap situation in the garage is not a good one. I hope they fix the issue. What will happen if they do? Will the Beacon and The Dean acknowledge this as a positive effort? I doubt it.
05 Mar 2007 at 06:20 pm | #
Yes, I will acknowledge that as a positive (albeit a late) effort.
However, 3CDC must first admit they have a problem. Donabedian kicking news crews out of the garage and calling me an “asshole” don’t seem to be indications that he is getting his focus in order.
05 Mar 2007 at 07:12 pm | #
Why doesn’t 3CDC give handicapped people free valet service? Then they would get some good press for a change.
05 Mar 2007 at 07:17 pm | #
Mike and Robert, could you please provide an example of which direction 3CDC is taking our city. What is it you like? What changes are good and where’s the progress?
05 Mar 2007 at 07:54 pm | #
First of all I am sorry to Mr. Patton I did not realize that you also used public transportation, although I don’t remember you mentioning it.
Another thing. I do not plan on running for council again, so we can just drop your little dream there buddy. I am going to be serving my city in a different respect, hopefully soon.
In regards to what 3CDC is doing for our city in a positive light. I don’t believe that we would be seeing as much redevelopment around the square. I know for a fact that McCormick and Schmick’s would not have located there if it weren’t for the vision at the square. I am sure Nichola’s wouldn’t be putting a cafe there either if it wasn’t. Boi Na Braza more than likely the same ticket. The renovation of the 580 building is rather big news and once completed will have new stuff going on there. These things would not have happened if the square wasn’t being redone.
You can’t say those things don’t help. I live downtown and over the past year have noticed an increasing amount of foot traffic at night. While it is still not where I would like it to be it is better than what it was.
If the fountain square renovation isn’t helping downtown prove it. The burden of proof lies with you. I see everyday more people coming downtown because of it, so please do tell me the “truth.”
As far as defending 3CDC I do not defend them. They don’t need to be defended by me. I just call it as I see it. Yes, the funding was sketchy. Some of the design of the square lies with 3CDC, but fine details do not. You hire a group to do what is right and when they don’t you should hold them accountable. Will they? I don’t know that answer. I hope so.
When the square is finished and 3CDC says it is over then we will see the final project. It is a work in progress. Behind schedule, but a work in progress nonetheless.
Instead of sitting behind your computer bitching about some project in Cincinnati why don’t we all try to help the city out. Come downtown and spend some money. Walk the streets. Go to Northside and eat or drink at a bar. Go to the West End and see one of the most spectacular pieces of architecture in the country. Go do something for Cincinnati. Quit bringing it down.
05 Mar 2007 at 08:12 pm | #
You ask so here are my thoughts:
According to DCI, the Starbucks at the corner of 4th and Vine doubled their revenue this winter. Why? Because of the efforts of 3CDC, the Square, and the improved ice rink. If you don’t believe me then call them. Other businesses have also experience increased revenue this winter because of the Square. It was literally packed over the winter. People downtown = a healthy city.
5/3rd Bank is redoing their building and will open with new tenants soon. Is it behind schedule? Yes, but I don’t think that project would be underway unless for Fountain Square. Imagine a Greaters and other establishments there? It would be a great thing.
The 580 building saw a renovation and is almost complete as well as 525 Vine Street with the new JoA Banks store. These are all positives for our City. The restaurants previously mentioned are great additions as well, including Morton’s which wasn’t mentioned. Plus, like it or not the Fountain Square garage is a huge improvement over what it was. Do I think it has some issues still? Absolutely and I hope they fix them. I’m willing to wait and see on this one.
So there are some examples, and I’m sure there will be many more. These were just off the top of my head.
OTR is of course a very touchy subject. The jury is still out on that one, and they still have some convincing to do for me to buy in. However, if we can keep this discussion to the Center City then I think what they’re doing there is great.
The Banks is another issue if that ever happens.
05 Mar 2007 at 11:20 pm | #
Mike, I think that had something to do with all the construction workers. Wasn’t the square closed last winter? I was there last Saturday and the square wasn’t packed at all. I wish it was and hope it picks up.
I agree with you on this. If city funds hadn’t paid for taking away the skywalk, 5/3 probably wouldn’t be redoing the little building. I wish they were redoing the big ugly building, after all 5/3 is making a lot of money off of the big loans on the fountain square project. The way they moved the fountain it seems more like a 5/3 atrium than a public square. At least that other water feature would’ve helped, but I guess that’s not going to happen now.
Isn’t 5/3s CEO Schaffer still on the 3CDC board? I still think that’s a conflict of interest. 3CDC can refinance loans as many times as they want without any oversight. If you run a bank and are on the 3CDC board there’s an opportunity to make a nice profit. No oversight?
I would like it if the garage was a huge improvement. It isn’t! It still leaks, has mold and chipping paint and is confusing and dangerous for handicapped people. I also liked just paying people on the way out instead of having to go to that place at the top. I will say the lighting is better, but that’s about it. I’m still waiting to see a big improvement.
Yeah 3CDCs gentrification in OTR is bad, I can’t believe council gives them our tax dollars to do that. And why does 3CDC get to control the Banks also? Nobody trusts 3CDC except Mike, Robert and the politicians that they pay for.
05 Mar 2007 at 11:53 pm | #
3CDC doesn’t control the Banks. They may not have a role other than Leeper sitting on the board. Castellini controls The Banks.
I’ll say it one more time and then stop because I’m tired. The garage is leaking ONLY because of the work in front of the Westin. It will stop leaking when they complete the work. It’s construction it happens. Do we all wish it would have been completed earlier? Yes. Was it? No. Why? Nobody knows, other than it wasn’t. I’ve heard that the City wouldn’t let them close both sidewalks at the same time. I personally think that was a good idea.
I can’t say too much about the paint. It is peeling. The parts that aren’t peeling (which is most of the garage by the way) looks great. The new colors and design are a huge improvement. For the 1% that did peel I hope they patch it soon.
As for the pay stations, this isn’t a Fountain Square thing. It’s happening in garages all over the country - automated pay stations. Our aiport (CVG) has the exact same system. I don’t hear anyone complaining about that. I do wish there was one in the Westin lobby. That would be nice. Maybe they’ve already ordered one.
06 Mar 2007 at 12:28 am | #
Mike, Castellini and Leeper are both on the board of 3CDC.
The paints peeling inside both stairwells and outside of them. It’s a lot more than 1% that’s for sure and there will be more mold soon. If I painted my house before I fixed my leaky roof you would think I was stupid for wasting my money. If I wasted taxpayer money you would be pissed off at me. 3CDC has wasted money and aren’t even close to being done on time. Do you not agree?
I guess if the automated machines were as convienient as the old way I would have said they were a huge improvement. Besides it’s still confusing and dangerous for handicapped people. Not a huge improvement at all.
06 Mar 2007 at 02:30 pm | #
If the the project is over budget - which it may or may not be - the only way that it’s wasting taxpayer money is if they ask the tax payers for more. If they find money through private sources, i.e. 5/3rd then how does that waste tax payer money? The City donated 4 million. The granite alone cost more than that. Therefore, you can assume the City and tax payers donated the granite. The rest of the project is private money. That’s one way to look at it.
You’ll argue that it’s a 100 million dollar job. Fine, you can have the perspective, but no one has seen that money yet. It’s in the future and therefore you cannot count it as wasted since it so far has not existed.
Of the thousands of square feet that garage is, there is some peeling in the stairwells, and lobby areas. If you measure that square footage based on the whole I’ll bet you it’s less then 1%. I was down there this week and looked for myself.
“There will be more mold soon.” Are you saying there is mold now? Show me a picture because I disagree.
06 Mar 2007 at 03:12 pm | #
They may not be wasting tax money, but they are costing the citizens of Cincinnati more money.
By taking the FSQ garage out of the City’s garage revenue stream, they have caused a projected deficit for the parking system budget. The 7.5 million will alleviate that crunch for the short term, but according to the City’s finance department deficits are forthcoming. The only way to offset them will be to raise parking rates City-wide.
06 Mar 2007 at 03:25 pm | #
Maybe, and maybe not. The only way to tell is wait and see. We really can’t assume anything, that’s one of my issues with The Beacon - too much assumption. Also, there is a thing called inflation. Rates will go up at some point whether 3CDC influences this or not. Even if they do, parking in downtown is still relatively cheap. 3 bucks for 2 hours in the heart of any city is a good deal no matter how you slice it. On the weeknights and weekends it’s even better.
06 Mar 2007 at 04:18 pm | #
Now you know more that the City of Cincinnati’s Finanace Department? I sat with Joe Gray, and he showed me all his spreadsheets. It stands to reason, if you bother to think, that removing the FSQ garage revenue from the system puts less money into the system. Yet the City still has to pay $500,000 annually for maintenance to 3CDC. So, that’s an expenditure on top of an income loss.
06 Mar 2007 at 06:28 pm | #
With all this hub bub over the Square we might have lost sight of one point. It appears from reading on this that what the 3CDC did was not “illegal” but at least in my opinion it was immoral and unethical (hey lets save a few $ and not make it “easy” for the handicapped), even though they followed the letter of the law.
06 Mar 2007 at 06:59 pm | #
Mike, how long have you worked for 3CDC again?
It would stand to reason that since the project has been delayed 3 times and parts of the floors and walls well have to be scraped, repainted and redone again that it is over budget. Unless 3CDC planned on having delays and being over budget.
That’s the deceptive way that 3CDC wants people to look at it. You know that our 3CDC owned City Council donated 40 years of our annual garage revenue and so our parking fees go up at meters and city owned garages to fill that gap.
Ask 3CDC how much the projections for that revenue are and they’ll say that’s “private” information. That’s because they know it’s at least $100 million. Sure 5/3 will make a nice profit on the loans.
We can count it as wasted money because we are footing the bill in the end no matter what little shell game you want to play. Chad Munitz from 3CDC says that at some point 3CDC will need to get all of the loans refinanced. Michael Moely from Channel 5 did a nice litte story on this 3CDC tale also.
I think this video shows what looks like leaky, moldy and rusty pipes in the middle of the garage. It smells like mold in the hall ways, but you can’t always see mold. The point is that this needs to be dealt with quickly because mold can be very dangerous and is hard to detect.
BTW Dean, 3CDC gave the city $7.5 million (+ $100,000 in campaign contributions to City Council)and got $4 million + 40 years of annual garage revenue in return. If I gave you $7.5 and you gave me $4 right back, how much did I really give to you?($3.5?) That’s a hell of deal.
07 Mar 2007 at 09:33 am | #
Chuck;
Who do you work for again? My guess would be that you work for a non-profit in OTR that gets its funding through the government, and this ongoing tirade is an attempt to save your worthless job.
The fountain square project may have been delayed, but the original timeline was extremely fast, and at least it is getting done, which is more than can be said for other City projects.
I just wasted an hour or so of my time reading through all these “investigations” into 3CDC. You’re all obviously on a whitch hunt.