The Cincinnati Beacon - FLDS - A Reflective Note

Saturday, April 26, 2008

FLDS - A Reflective Note

A note from Scott Ryan

Words cannot describe the feeling in the pit of my stomach every time I read an update on the FLDS raid in Texas. Taking 400 plus kids and putting them in a system that already must rely on some very suspicious people to foster children is asking for trouble. The bottom feeding that must be executed just to dredge up enough people to house these kids will undoubtedly set in motion a series of events that the local family service agency will forever regret.

At one point in the article below, the breast feeding mothers were assured that they would be able to provide milk to the children. That was almost a week ago, and this has still not been arranged.

Let us assume that all of our horrible stereotypes that have been engrained in our brain by the mainstream media are true about these despicable polygamous sects. Those children would still be infinitely better off with their parents than in a system that produces such horrifying cases as Marcus Feisel.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9056589

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says:
27 Apr 2008 at 05:18 am | #

latest update.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/26/lawyers-2-sect-kids-missing/

says:
27 Apr 2008 at 07:36 am | #

WHY IS THERE NOT OUTRAGE?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5733194.html

says:
27 Apr 2008 at 09:59 am | #

Another Update:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080425/D9095CA81.html

ThatDeborahGirl says:
27 Apr 2008 at 10:18 am | #

I am worried about some of the dangerous legal precedents being set here (and being revisited) regarding religion, child raising and parental rights.

It seems our government truly can wage pre-emptive war against not only countries but also her people on the flimsiest of evidence. There was another and better way to do this, which was to simply have many investigators on site and remove or find a better placement within these people’s community for any children deemed at risk, only removing children outside their community if absolutely necessary.

But from slavery to the days before the Indian Child Welfare act, our government has never had a problem with the wholesale removal of children from their homes and handing them over to “Good Christians” to raise.

What’s even harder to understand is that now they know the tips were generated by false claims and by a woman who’s lied like this before, why are they still pursuing this?

The media seem to only want to present this story in the most salacious way possible. If what even a portion of what they’re saying is true, I can’t quite agree with the way these people live - but that’s really beyond the point. Short of real abuse findings, does our government have the right to do what they’re doing?

anon says:
27 Apr 2008 at 06:29 pm | #

Alright, this is a hard one. Much easier since it doesn’t involve me or my kids, or my religion.

However. There’s law. The law proscribes that polygamy is illegal.

If a group of families who claim that drug production and use is a tenet of their religion thwarted the law, established a closed community under the veil of religion, and continued their illegal ways - producing and using drugs - let’s say crack, ‘cause noone will argue the harm.

And if that congregation raised children, immersed them exclusively in that drug culture with an expectation that they will be damned or oustracized permanently for rejecting the primary factor which demands their exclusion from the rest of society - would we be sympathetic to the parents if the children were taken away?

The main premise of their entire lives are built on illegal behavior. They have indoctrinized these children to the point of having no choices whatsoever. Their isolation denies them all opportunity to be a part of society outside the sect.

Of course we are all indoctrinized by our family, religious and social norms—the biggest difference here is that—their norms are illegal.

Each adult should be charged with violation of the law or conspiracy to do so. The PARENTS have subjected them to what undoubtably will result in numerous cases of abuse and trauma - not the state.

(Personally, I see no reasoning for separating these children from each other and divying them up into foster homes - they should all remain together in one setting most consistent to their norms as possible. In fact, put all the adults in jail, let the children go home and bring social workers and home aides into the compound)

The parents have obstructed the investigation by telling their children to not talk to authorities, to act like they don’t know who their parents are, etc. The parents have used their children to manipulate the media’s sympathy by putting forth only the mothers and not the fathers and by refusing to discuss the substantive issues of the problem—hell, they won’t even tell authorities which kids are theirs and which are not!

Catastrophy. No doubt. But when you engage children as favors in your illegal devices - expect outraged, moral indignation, and response.

Sorry - let them denounce their religion, establish safe homes, protect them from the tenets and people of the tenets—and they can raise their children in peace.

says:
27 Apr 2008 at 08:39 pm | #

That sounds a lot like urban life. Families can live in a community knowing full well that the neighboring house is a crack house. Hell, they might even go over from time to time to socialize and enjoy the atmosphere, maybe they know most of the people that hang out at the crack house. Maybe even partake in some minor illegal behavior.

I say we round up all the children in urban ghettos and put them in foster care.

This is nonsense!!!

Anon, you are buying in to these MSM voodoo taboo stereotypes. To this day there are still minors that are legally married.

Did you know that until 2003 it was still legal to marry at the age of 14 in the state of Texas.

Not saying any of this above behavior is right or even legal. But, Jesus Christ, they are taking innocent children, and even infants, away from their parents that may or may not have been involved in such behavior.

I have never been more upset about a current events topic in my entire 40 year life. (I was too out of touch to realize the implications of WACCO at the time)

What is next?

Find the perverted SOBs and put them in jail, but how far is the state permitted to go in order to find the SOBs?

Now that I have calmed down .... This is really a property rights issue.

Granted, life is not like a box of chocolates and evil can not be pre-empted, dispite what the neocons believe. If an individual has a complaint to file about being raped or molested as a minor then let them come forward. If not, then let them be. Who is to say that this hypothetical 14 year old is not happy, or that she will have a productive life, or that she could give birth to a child that will eventually solve all our energy problems. Excuse my language, but what the fuck are we as a country becoming?

O.K. I haven’t quite calmed down yet.

Sorry Dean, you can edit that if needed.

says:
28 Apr 2008 at 11:03 am | #

Today, world net daily made my exact point from last night.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=62743

I am glad people are starting to see this for what it is. Legalized kidnapping.

says:
28 Apr 2008 at 01:28 pm | #

Another stomach sickening update:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695274226,00.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=62743

Bearman says:
28 Apr 2008 at 05:40 pm | #

Scott...reports out today say that 31 of the 53 female teens between 14-17 are either pregnant or have given birth already.

If an individual has a complaint to file about being raped or molested as a minor then let them come forward. If not, then let them be. Who is to say that this hypothetical 14 year old is not happy, or that she will have a productive life, or that she could give birth to a child that will eventually solve all our energy problems.

That isn’t how the law works. There are plenty of examples of minors who consent to sex with an adult and the adult is still liable. The convenience of a polygamist marriage (which anon pointed out is illegal), is just a cover and therefore your argument that minors still get married doesn’t hold - b/c these minors aren’t legally married to the adults who are impregnating them.

You compared the foster parents to being like a Marcus Feisel. Here is a situation that if rape of minors is going on, that you have other adults who are tacitly allowing it. That seems more like the Feisel situation than the foster system.

says:
29 Apr 2008 at 07:15 am | #

Bearman:

For now, let us assume that every word from the issued press release by Child Protective Services is accurate.

How many illegitimate children are born to underage mothers with adult fathers in this country? Are you saying that these babies should be taken from their mother and put into foster care because the father broke the law by having intercourse with an underage girl? There is an entire urban culture that disagrees with the law and condones out of wedlock underage sex. Should the individuals within this culture be prohibited by law from having children? And have their children confiscated if they happen to have any?

You say that that is not how the law works and that there are plenty of examples of minors who consent to sex with an adult and the adult is still liable. Let us then see how the law works. When an adult is tried for statutory rape, exactly how did the authorities arrive at arresting this adult? Since it was consensual, some third party must have reported it. Usually it is the underage victim’s parents and they press charges on behalf of the child. Now, you mean to tell me, that if the parents do not report such an incident to the police and wish to, at least initially, try to handle the situation as a private matter that these parents should be punished? The state should take that underage victim away from its parents and be placed in foster care? Should they take the babies away from the neighbors of these evil parents that didn’t report a statutory rape case? Should they raid the entire neighborhood with tanks and guns a blazing and confiscate all the children and place them in foster care because the parents of a victim of underage sex did not report to authorities?

Bearman, in the end, I am hoping that we find out that it wasn’t the FLDS that violated the law, but CPS and the AG down in Texas. The only thing that is keeping me sane about this topic at the moment is that I truly believe that very shortly all those children will be reunited with their parents. Men have willingly died for less. If it was my children, and I have three under the age of 5, I would gladly sacrifice my life for those children to be reunited with my wife and their mother. Let us all hope and pray that it doesn’t come to that down in Texas.

Finally, Bearman said:

Who raped whom? Has anybody been charged with violating the law? All we have is a press release by CPS. No one has been arrested, or charged. If I live next to a rapist and attend the same church as this rapist, should I have my children confiscated? You are focused on this mythical evil filth of a man, that if exists, should be fed to the lions. I am focused on these real live innocent children, infants, and families whose lives have been destroyed by the state. Let us get this over as quickly as possible, pick some random scapegoat, put a bullet in his head, and reunite these children with their parents. I would argue that this would be the lesser of two evils. In fact, I would willingly volunteer to be the skapegoat, someone please pull the trigger.

Let me make a prediction. If in fact there is at least one adult male living in the FLDS compound that is a sexual predator, the state of Texas has just given this man a “get out of jail for free” card because of how they have handled this case.

One last comment. It has not been substantiated, but there is a lot of info about this subject. The word around Texas was that the FLDS was putting a lot of contractors out of business. It seems that they pissed off the wrong contractor, causing the authorities to have itchy trigger fingers.

Bearman says:
29 Apr 2008 at 05:57 pm | #

How many illegitimate children are born to underage mothers with adult fathers in this country? Are you saying that these babies should be taken from their mother and put into foster care because the father broke the law by having intercourse with an underage girl?

I am saying in this case it appears that grown men were having sex with minors and the minors parents not only knew about it but approved of it, then the minor AND her baby should be removed from the adult parents. I am OK if the minor and her child are kept together.

Now, you mean to tell me, that if the parents do not report such an incident to the police and wish to, at least initially, try to handle the situation as a private matter that these parents should be punished?

Doesn’t seem like the case here. It’s not a question of the parents not reporting it...this wasn’t some isolated case of one man and one girl. It was systemic to the compound. Allowing it to happen and in some cases participating in it doesn’t sound to me that they were trying to handle it.

I just can’t seem to get my mind around where you draw the line and when it is OK to remove a minor from a household. If I am sleeping with a daughter of mine who is 13 years old who ends up with a child and my wife is OK with it, no one should bother us about it??

says:
29 Apr 2008 at 10:47 pm | #

Bearman:

All great points and you make some compelling arguments.

There are a few holes.

Where are the accused?

Is it the state’s argument that each and every one of the 463 children was living in an abusive environment?

Where are the victims?

Can the state kidnap all 463 children because there “appears” to be grown men having sex with minors? And does the state have the power to kidnap as many as they choose and then sort it out later?

Usually, a complaint must precede an investigation, which must precede any evidence of probable cause, at which point action can be taken. It looks like the state is working backwards in this case.

Again, I must stress, you seem to be focusing on this mythical evil child predator/s. Let us assume for now that this mythical evil child predator/s exists within the FLDS community. What do you think is a reasonable course of action for the state?

Let us try another example. It has recently been publicized that Roger Clemens had a sexual relationship with a 15 year old “child”. There is even some evidence that his wife knew about it, but said nothing. As the great Thomas Moore made clear, in the eyes of the law, silence means consent. This couple has minor children that live with them. What is a reasonable course of action for the state? What if Mr. Clemens agent knew about this and said nothing? What if his extended family knew about this and said nothing? What if the 15 year old’s parents knew about this and said nothing? Should this small community of people be subjected to the same action that has occurred in Elderado, TX and have any and all minor children in their custody kidnapped by the state for an unspecified period of time until it can be proven that it would be safe for them to return?

Did you know that prior to 2005, in the state of Texas, it was legal for a 14 year old to marry with the consent of the parents? Did you know that prior to 2005, in the state of Texas, a 16 year old had the right to engage in consensual sex with an adult?

Are you not the least bit suspicious of the motives of the state?
I smell a bit of persecution. It smells a lot like the past persecution of mixed marriages, Jews, Christians, Jehovah Witnesses, and the still present persecution of gays and the not so ordinary lifestyles of the sexual deviants. This was action taken due to the societal damnation of polygamy and the FLDS. This action was not taken to protect innocent children. It is ironic that their actions for the stated purpose of protecting children will irreversibly harm these children.

April 28, 2004 was the date that the state became aware of who was settling on what is now the FLDS ranch. The state has remained silent on this issue for 4 years. Does the state have any culpability here?

The only crime that I see that can be remotely proved at this point would be polygamy and possibly statutory rape (but the latter may only be able to be proven through the fruits of poisonous trees). What would be the appropriate action for the state?

463 children. That is more children than I had at my high school. (Covington Catholic 1987) The state has quite literally confiscated a small town of its children. It kind of reminds me of an old story that took place in the small town of Bethlehem.

I am also reminded of the scaredy cat book that I read to my kids.

Some are breastfeeding infants. Were they in immediate danger? Usually states must prove a reasonable interest to justify action and must act according to the law as interpreted in its least restrictive manner. Has this happened?

The state seems to be throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I know that CPS nationwide has broad leeway and may even have the authority to act as it sees fit as an activist agency for children. These questions should be held to bear on the system as a whole.

Filthy evil child predators are filthy evil child predators!
Fascism is fascism!!!

NtotheC says:
30 Apr 2008 at 08:38 am | #

Mr. Ryan,

What would you have the state do when there is a potentially harmful situation for a child? What about the fact that if those children (who have been raised to think that children must marry older men, if the allegations are true) are then living in a situation where they are told to lie and hinder the investigation.

While i cannot condone separating young children from their mothers, i similarly cannot condone leaving childbrides with their husbands. Of course, the FLDS church does not document these marriages because that would be illegal.

There are many young girls that are pregnant or already have children. I can’t find a single person that thinks 13-15 year old girls should be having babies, whether they be in a FLDS compound or in the projects.

This is a case where the state is taking precautions to protect the children and their investigation. Could they be handling it better? certainly. But, when it comes to children, caution is better than disregard.

says:
30 Apr 2008 at 12:22 pm | #

Another update:

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9095983

says:
30 Apr 2008 at 02:33 pm | #

NtotheC:

No freedom for you sir!!!

People who choose safety at the expense of freedom deserve neither!!!

I ask again, for the third time, WHERE IS THIS MYTHICALLY ACCUSED CHILD PREDATOR?

I would think that by now the state would be plastering his picture all over the place along with the sordid detailed workings of his evil mind.

cincysuz says:
30 Apr 2008 at 04:45 pm | #

Jehovah’s witnesses have a miserable, scandalous, filthy history of incest and sexual abuse of children. Numbers in the tens of thousands. Far larger than the few hundred involved in the polygymous cult. There are support groups all over the world to help the adult victims of child incest as well as sexual abuse by non relative church elders. The site is silentlambs.org. The church keeps a secret database of more than 30,000 abusers. But since their law requires two direct eye witnesses to the abuse--which is ridiculous--elders are rarely charged and when they are, the punishment is rendered by the other elders and that’s usually suspension from services for a short amount of time. Police are not involved. The victims claim that the church condones sexual abuse of children.

All that said, I would still be outraged if all Jehovah’s Witnesses’ children were removed, DNA tested, and put in foster care with no due process. I would of course support individual investigations of specific incidents to protect the children.

NtotheC says:
01 May 2008 at 10:53 am | #

Mr. Ryan,

I appreciate your paraphrased quote “from” Mr. Benjamin Franklin.

In our society we have given certain segments of the population special status. These groups are protected beyond the level that most of us are. Children are one of those areas. Shall we treat a 13 year old girl as if she were an adult? Certainly not.

I hope that those affecting this investigation will come forth with any information in a speedy fashion, and i hope that they weren’t wrong about this.

If they were, i would expect restitution from the government for their troubles.

After all, it’s possible that the FLDS church is merely misunderstood and does not practice any form of polygamy or what we deem child abuse.

says:
01 May 2008 at 05:09 pm | #

NtothelC:

“In our society we have given certain segments of the population special status. These groups are protected beyond the level that most of us are. Children are one of those areas. Shall we treat a 13 year old girl as if she were an adult? Certainly not.”

Yes society has chosen to do this. Not sure if I agree with how the state has chosen to protect minors, it is the law nonetheless, but they have kidnapped the children of an entire town. Can I get you to at least admit that the state has overstepped its bounds?

Also, try to follow how CPS gets involved in cases. Sometimes there are anonymous calls and I understand the reasoning behind this. What if, hypothetically speaking of course, after investigating an anonymous call accusing your family of these atrocities, CPS found out that it was a prank call? Would you expect the state to immediately make things whole again? Or do you think it would be appropriate for the state to take a “since we are here” approach? Got any porn on your computer? Dirty magazines in plain site? Prescription bottles within reach? How dirty is your house today? Have you mown the lawn lately? Dirty diaper on the floor? Any bruises on your kids? You got a neighbor that doesn’t like you? How about a not so happy ex? What is your annual income? Where did you get that new large screen t.v.? What is the daily diet of each of your kids? Do you mind if we take a look around? Do your kids sleep with you? Do you have a criminal record? Any outstanding speeding tickets? Is your 2 year old still breastfeeding? Can we examine your children? What about a private interview with them? How many drinks do you have a night? Any recent hospital visits for the children?

I can go on and on.

Just because some crazy woman made a prank call.

Or is it because they are different, and there are rumors flying?

Oh and by the way, we are investigating your entire neighborhood, because we heard rumors and we consider you a “sect”.

NtotheC says:
02 May 2008 at 09:38 am | #

Mr. Ryan,

It seems that the Agency may have overstepped its bounds...we’ll have to see, although the fact that many of these children have children and the girls outnumber the boys could (circumstantially) mean some illegal conduct.

We’ll have to see how this goes. I don’t think there is any doubt that the FLDS Church condones polygamy and has in the past been guilty of child abuse (as we, society, define it).

If someone came into my house after a call (taken legitimately that turns out false) and found some rolling papers, i’d rather expect them to look a little deeper. And if i had dirty diapers on the floor or porn strewn about the house with small children...well, that might be another piece in the puzzle. Those are all things that seem to be inappropriate.

Certainly CPS can step over its bounds...what can you expect of them when they suffer incredible backlashes following horror stories like Marcus Fiesel? Social workers in areas deal with horrible things and dangerous situations. not to mention they are second guessed at every turn.

That is a job i would never take.

says:
02 May 2008 at 08:11 pm | #

Can you imagine the pressure that is going to be placed on them when the truth about this case comes out?

says:
05 May 2008 at 03:07 pm | #

NtotheC:

Not sure if you commented on the other thread. I have been updating over there if this is of interest to you.

http://www.cincinnatibeacon.com/index.php/contents/comments/i_am_willing_to_die_for_a_filthy_polygamist_child_predator/

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