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Sunday, October 05, 2008
EXPOSED! Two sets of rules on Fountain Square
Posted by The Dean of Cincinnati
So last weekend, I was on Fountain Square, with my son—and I also happened to have Justin’s video camera. The Junior Dean was using his shoes to make an “X” in the dirt/gravel area. This really upset an orange-shirt-wearing Downtown Ambassador. What happened next was weird, but ultimately enlightening.
This guy kept yelling at my son, “Hey, shawtie! Shawtie! Shawtie!” My son, having never heard the word “shawtie,” didn’t even think to look up when this was shouted. So the orange-shirt ran up and made him stop playing in the dirt. He then turned to me, and told me that I should not let him do such an activity as it was against “the rules.”
I asked what rule, specifically, banned a child from playing in the dirt, and he got belligerent, saying, “What, does there need to be a rule written down for everything?” At that point, I whipped out the camera. I guess Mr. Orange Shirt really didn’t like that, since he ran and told the cops. Here is the short video:
Did you hear that key line? The cop said that there are two sets of rules—those that 3CDC has articulated for Fountain Square, and then the rules that are actually enforceable by the police.
What does it mean, exactly, that 3CDC has a set of rules that no one can enforce?
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05 Oct 2008 at 10:52 am | #
“Shorty” or “Shawtie” is an affectionate term used by some when referring to a young person. Even though orange suit was chastising your son…it’s like it takes a community or village thing. It’s like if Sarah Palin would wink like Flo from that TV show Mel’s diner and say “hunny” or “honey.” Anyway…cute kid.
05 Oct 2008 at 02:53 pm | #
Cincinnati’s “Ambassadors” should not be harassing young children or their parents. They are paid to welcome and help citizens, not to enforce rules that have been manufactured by their own imagination or quasi-governmental fictitious entities (like 3CDC) that try to control our public spaces. Like the police, they work for the city, not 3CDC.
05 Oct 2008 at 03:28 pm | #
I know what “Shawtie” means. My five year old son does not.
05 Oct 2008 at 05:39 pm | #
Since when did yelling slang by city employees become not only acceptable, but a “term of affection”?
But that’s not the point…
Basically then, there are three sets of rules governing the Square. One of which is actually enforceable, and two sets that are mere suggestions.
Someone should really get a set of those rules!
05 Oct 2008 at 05:48 pm | #
Several times, my kids have been asked to stop playing in the gravel (actually decomposed granite) by ambassadors. Once some citizens did too. It seemed kinda strange, but I do admit they were stirring up some dust when the citizens said something to us.
05 Oct 2008 at 08:02 pm | #
librariangrrl—Of course yelling slang is not a term of affection, but referring to a young person by the term “shauty” “shawtie” or “shorty” is what some call young people. You on the other hand may refer to him by another term such as young man or whatever.
You know what I meant or at least you should have.
Honestly I didn’t know the orange jump suit people were ambassadors. I live in a different county and I’m just now reaquainting myself with DT.
Are you friends with Cincysuz?
05 Oct 2008 at 08:38 pm | #
Confusing situation.
* There are city laws.
* There are rules private property owners can set up on their own, but their only recourse is to kick you off their property if you do not abide by them. Refusing to leave private property is something that the police can enforce. But the Cincinnati Ambassador is not the proprietor of Fountain Square so he cannot make that call for the property owner.
* Fountain Square is a government owned property and also a public space which is leased to 3CDC. 3CDC wants to act like Fountain Square is private property & not a public space. But this *may* not hold up legally.
05 Oct 2008 at 10:01 pm | #
Great video! Hard to believe that there are vague rules that govern the public places and parks of Cincinnati that only a police man would know. Vandalism is one thing but children playing innocently is completely different. Maybe our mystery orange man just needed a feel good day by picking you and your son…
06 Oct 2008 at 08:19 am | #
When the rules aren’t written, the petty tyrants assume authority. When the state uses armed policemen to enforce this authority, which is unfettered authority, we have a police state. I don’t believe that the majority of the people meant for anyone to have unfettered authority in this country.
I think that your video should be presented to each councilman to confirm or deny the authority that has been assumed. If this authority is denied, then the council member should ask for an investigation as the council members have taken an oath to uphold the Constitution. It is obvious that the city government bought or authorized the shirt that the petty tyrant wears and that the purpose of the shirts is to imply authority. If the authority is not legal, then there was and is an apparent conspiracy to deny individual rights under color of law and that is a crime.
06 Oct 2008 at 09:16 am | #
.
Come on gang:
We don’t know what really was happening. Kids play, but, they can also be destructive.
If a child is playing in your yard and takes his shoe, boot, and starts digging at your grass, one would stop the behavior, PERIOD !
Is there a written rule ?
If every kid dug in the gravel, dirt, at the square then over time there would be ruts and could cause an elderly individual to trip and break a hip.
The question may be: Why didn’t the Dean stop the behavior to begin with ?
Kids can play at parks.
Would a child have the right to dig his shoes in the carpet in a public building ?
Why should there be a double standard for landscape ?
Perhaps, we imagine more than reality and the child made one small move, but, we have to think that an adult would use some discretion before attempted discipline ?
The Police state is a bit much, however.
.
.
06 Oct 2008 at 03:04 pm | #
Amazing. People make assumptions based on a shaky and loose video that has been taken entirely out-of-context.
Here is something new to try: Do some research! I found out who operates the Downtown Ambassador Program in a matter of one minute (Downtown Cincinnati Inc.), and gave them a polite phone call and gave them the address of this web-site. In all respects, they were very professional and courteous, and were very curious as to what this video and complaint was about. They even forwarded the notice to their director, all while on the phone with me.
Instead, someone makes a stint over nothing. A video camera recording the after-events of the supposed incident? Give me a break. A little too convenient. A police state? That’s a far stretch.
If your kid was making a mess at Fountain Square and was causing a scene, that’s one thing. If he wasn’t, that’s another. But we have no proof of either, except for the word of the one holding the video. We also have no proof of the alleged infraction.
Until I hear more about this, it is safe to assume that this is a frivilous complaint made in haste. For all the effort and time required to produce the YouTube video and upload it, along with the discussion, you could have made an easy phone call and got an informed response.
06 Oct 2008 at 03:09 pm | #
The Downtown Cincinnati Ambassadors actually work for and report to Downtown Cincinnati Inc. (DCI). DCI is an organization that oversees a special improvement district (SID) that covers much of Downtown. 3CDC is another entity all together and the two are only connected by similar interests when it comes to promoting Downtown and the center city.
06 Oct 2008 at 03:38 pm | #
Listen closely to what the cops say. They acknowledge that he was playing in the dirt.
06 Oct 2008 at 03:38 pm | #
Or, instead, insinuate that my five year old is a criminal…
06 Oct 2008 at 03:40 pm | #
And that says nothing. Did the cop actually see the kid playing in the dirt? No, because the Ambassador actually had to walk away to find the cop.
I still see no abuse. It’s a shame you weren’t videotaping your child playing in the dirt!
06 Oct 2008 at 04:54 pm | #
Sherman,
Under your hypothesis, I had my five year old son engage in some serious pseudo-illegal behavior so that he would go rat me out to the cops—and I was suave enough to make sure the cops would never notice what he actually did, so I could feed them a story about playing in the dirt.
Or, you can believe that which I have presented.
07 Oct 2008 at 07:48 am | #
Dieter, I don’t find anything terribly objectionable about this quote. But I just wanted to highlight the general tenor of most of your remarks. Don’t you call yourself “the sour kraut” at times? I have to give you credit for at least being self-aware but I do have to ask: whats up dude? Am I right to assume you are not a native of the USA? And if that is correct and I don’t mean to be rude but I have to ask the commonsense question: if you dislike this country so much why the hell do you stay here? I know its in your rights and all to be a “sour kraut” in this fascist land but simple commonsense says don’t make yourself miserable by staying in a place you don’t like.
And Dean, this may appear to be a personal attack but I think Dieter has shown he has thick enough skin to take it and I think it has broader applicability : namely, how much criticism is it socially appropriate for an immigrant to engage in?
07 Oct 2008 at 10:32 am | #
Didn’t watch the video, but don’t you think whipping out a camera every time something is going on is a bit much? It seems like it’s a bit confrontational or that it might escalate a situation beyond where it needs to go.
Kids play on stuff. It’s great to give them some unstructured time to work on their imaginations rather than rigidly regimenting their lives. Of course, sometimes they can cause a disturbance with their play. No big deal, but then if someone asks them to stop and the parent gets all huffy about it and then whips out a video camera, i can see where the situation would escalate many times behond where it would need to.
I’m not actually saying that this is what happened. I am just playing a hypothetical scenario based on the events that we know happened.
07 Oct 2008 at 11:11 am | #
NtotheC, Fountain Square is public space and if someone is making up rules and saying that people can’t do things they are allowed to do, they are the ones causing a disturbance. These things should be challenged and using a video camera is a good tool to help make your case.
07 Oct 2008 at 11:24 am | #
I mean, this isn’t a big deal. Your kid was making a mess in public and you conveniently were trying to make it a big deal, taping everything and all. Even if there is no rule, it’s disrespectful for your kid to be kicking dirt/sand everywhere.
Those people work hard to keep the square clean, and it probably bothers them when parents allow their kids to dig through dirt that they have to rake everyday.
Try being a parent and a respectful citizen istead of trying to get hits on your website and being so controversial all the time. But I guess somebody always has to rain on the parade.
07 Oct 2008 at 12:28 pm | #
When you speak of rights, I wonder how you determine rights? Do you have any more rights than a contemporary immigrant? History shows that this land was literally stolen from the natives by some Europeans. So where is the justification for the rights that you talk about?
I can see great potential in this land and I have as much “right” as anyone to it. I want this land to be better, but so long as so many people prefer to overlook its problems, it may never get better and probably will get worse. I prefer to point out the problems in hopes that there will be a critical mass that may recognize the problems and no longer tolerate them.
I point you to the present financial problems in this land. I had complained for seven years but it did no good because the herd was too selfish to listen and because I was only one voice in the wind. Perhaps, I may have better results with the other problems and there are many and the land might be better than if I and others were not to speak and make people like yourself uncomfortable. Perhaps I need to complain more or in another way.
Now when you ask “...how much criticism is it socially appropriate for an immigrant to engage in?” , I don’t know of any socially-appropriate standards and I doubt that I would consider them appropriate.
07 Oct 2008 at 12:53 pm | #
Given the naivete of the public and their complacency, I think the Dean’s use of the camera is appropriate. Without the video, which is not the best quality, most would simply dismiss the incident and Dean. Where would Rodney King have been if not for the camera?
07 Oct 2008 at 02:44 pm | #
dieterschmied,
Do you really think that this incident is on par with Rodney King?
Justin,
I believe that Obama-Biden fully support gay rights. They have said that they support civil unions. I apologize if the fact that i don’t use the word “marriage” fails to appease you; however, marriage is not really what judges are performing. They are performing civil unions between two people. That’s pretty much what “civil union” means. marriage is a religious term and the state has empowered preachers to perform them in a legally binding way.
How is Nader going to get churches to perform marriages for glbt couples?
07 Oct 2008 at 03:25 pm | #
This is in no way comparative to Rodney King, and the two should not be interrelated in any fashion. The short clip added little of value, sans an explanation from the officer—a far cry from police abuse. It was also sans the ambassador, so outside of the word from the Dean, there is nothing else to go on. One word versus another.
Not to say this entirely dismisses Dean’s comments, but if this was an actual, true case that justified going to the police, we would be hearing about it. So far, none of my contacts are able to do anything with this because no one can be identified that was involved (ambassador).
07 Oct 2008 at 07:25 pm | #
getbackcincy!
Get Real!
You need to get with the program. You have a government that considers any negative act against children just short of murder and you are criticizing a kid for playing in the dust that some anal retentive bureaucrat thought was chic and fashionable when it was raked?
Have you ever been a child or were you hatched?
Have you no toleration for children? I see this in Germany where they don’t want to see children in a restaurant but have no problem when they customers bring in their dogs. Germans are famous for their intolerance but they make up for it in other ways. Just how do you make up for your narrow-mindedness?
I occasionally babysit a kid. He pulls out everything that isn’t nailed down but in spite of my somewhat critical nature, I even can see it is a child and the child is doing what some kids do. I can clean up after the child and I am willing to do so because I want the child to be free to determine his own destiny and not grow up to be an anal-retentive zombie like you. I admit that this child has above-average intelligence as he is an offspring so that I expect that more will come from him than someone from your genes.
In other words: Eat Shit!
07 Oct 2008 at 07:38 pm | #
Yep!
Anytime that a government agent who is protected by conditional or absolute immunity violates the liberty of any citizen in any way under color of the law that isn’t proper, then the matter is deserving of total accountability. It isn’t a matter of degree, it is absolute.
Perhaps you need to talk and understand people who have been subject to such abuses. it is people like you who try to minimize incidents of this nature that aggravate these practices. You minimize because you feel uncomfortable because you fail to conscientiously acknowledge that the power these tyrants use comes from you!
07 Oct 2008 at 07:44 pm | #
Ref#21:
Wake up Sherman, if you can!
This isn’t about the cop. This is about the petty tyrant that operated under the sanction of law that is created by government. The cop did nothing wrong except to try to justify what his government does. He is just a pawn and in the great scheme of things—irrelevant!
07 Oct 2008 at 09:48 pm | #
Amazing. And I thought I was as “left-wing” as you could get, and then you have some petty commentators who rail against everything Cincinnati—3CDC, Fountain Square, the police… in every thread and blog post.
Nothing to see here, move along!
07 Oct 2008 at 10:05 pm | #
Who rails against everything Cincinnati?
3CDC doesn’t define Cincinnati, it is a collection of all the big CEO’s-most of whom don’t even live in the city-that try to take over public spaces and resources. 3CDC isn’t popular with the “left-wing” or the “right-wing” for that matter, just those in the corporate duoploy that like their big campaign contributions.
As dieterschmied already pointed out to you, the cop did nothing wrong and nobody is railing against the police in this thread or blog post. What are you talking about.
07 Oct 2008 at 10:35 pm | #
Dieter, I was probably in a testy mood this morning and wanted to yell at someone and to be honest your blogging persona always feels like a valid target for some yelling. I would just say that I think sometimes we lose perspective when discussing politics and don’t see it as just another part of normal human social relations. It seems to me that sometimes some people raise politics to a sacrosanct level in social life that has its own rules. For instance, if at work you notice that there are natural little social groups that have formed and you decide you find one social group interesting and would like to interact and possibly “join” the group, only an insane person would think an appropriate method would be to constantly point out all the faults of said group. Same with neighborhoods and all the other more local informal social networks people are apart of. All I’m saying is that the national and local political social networks are not really that different and it seems a bit silly to believe that a “newcomer” can move to a new country and have a persona of continuous criticism and expect to be taken seriously by the “natives” or expect to feel welcomed.
08 Oct 2008 at 08:12 am | #
Ref#30 above:
Trey!
I appreciate your comments because I have found few that will tell me where to get off. It is not my style to be tactful because tact is often inefficient and tends to mislead. I do expect to be taken seriously but I don’t expect to be welcomed.
It is interesting and timely to read your comments on social interactions. Last night, I was asked to escort someone to a gathering of about sixty people that attended a lecture on green buildings. After reading your comments, I reflected on how they might apply to my persona at this gathering. To my surprise, I have known three people besides the person who I had escorted at this gathering. One was an ex-councilman, who I do not speak to ever, and the caterer and a person responsible for the lecture, who I had not seen in twenty years.
I had a rewarding conversation was with the caterer, who had presented some very unique dishes for the buffet. I had a rewarding conversation with the old friend because of his knowledge of green buildings allowed him to bring me up to speed on the green building concept quickly and also because he was leaving for Berlin for five or six days next week.
I wandered through the remaining members hoping to hear something of interest to engage in conversation over green buildings or anything of substance. I attempted to engage in conversation with some innocuous statements about green buildings only to find that few, if any of the typically smiling idiots who paid to attend this socially chic lecture, knew anything more about the topic than what one would expect from the general population. So, after reflection upon your comments, I cannot disagree with what you say but I find the thought of being innocuous in a social setting as being one step from being brain dead. So, if you disagree with me, lay it on me for if you don’t, I will know that I am correct as always or you are brain dead.
11 Oct 2008 at 02:37 am | #
Once again Jason goes to Fountain Square and has to call the WAAAAAAAAAAHMBULANCE.
12 Oct 2008 at 09:09 am | #
This whole thread shows the outrage of the privileged white male when he’s NOT treated differently i.e., better than everyone else--with “kid” gloves, so to speak. It’s a violation of his birthright! This was such an insignificant incident that most people would immediately forget it. After all black teen-agers (and all skateboarders) are routinely banished from the square as well as many other places simply for the crime of being nothing other than who they are. That’s a story. Get over it Dean. If I had a conniption everytime someone said, “Hey, your kid’s making a mess. Get him/her under control” I would have been in a conststant frenzy as would most parents. It takes a village. Little Dean can kick up the dust in his own back yard or in one of the many Hamilton County parks set aside for child’s play. Just keep a better eye and quit trying to make a federal case out of it.
12 Oct 2008 at 10:38 am | #
Firstly, I have no idea how the ambassador would approach a white boy. Secondly, why did he tell the cops? But thirdly—and this is the point—how can there be two sets of rules, those written by 3CDC and those the police actually enforce?
That is the real story, not the incident with my son.
15 Oct 2008 at 01:33 pm | #
Randy,
DCI and 3cdc are connected by a 600,000 dollar contract to sweep the square too.
16 Oct 2008 at 07:30 pm | #
The sad part Jason, is listening to your son say, “Daddy make a video.” Is this how you are raising your son- that when things don’t go his way- whip out the video camera?
OK,so they were being jerks about the entire thing,I agree. But the real issue is allowing your child to do something that could be considered making a mess in public, that someone else has to clean-up. Yeah,keeping dirt in one spot,the gravel, is where it is suppose to stay! But then when someone, one of the yutes hired to keep an eye on FSQ, ask you to keep it under control, you son, goes into,"Make a video Daddy!” mode.
Well, this isn’t going to work in the real world. You can’t send him to school with his own little camera and everytime someone says or does something mean, make a You Tube about it.
Yeah, life sucks! And sometimes you have rules to obey, even if they aren’t written. It is called manners.
I can just see Dean Jrs. first video-"How my friends started a fight with me over my Lunchable since it isn’t a healthy lunch?” or “How I got mad at my teacher because I didn’t get a smiley face on my spelling!”
Life isn’t fair. But sometimes you just have to learn to suck it up! Even when you are 5.
17 Oct 2008 at 04:25 am | #
Uh, the sad part is really how you can make up such a fantasy. I would venture to say Dean, Jr. had no real idea anything was going on. He saw me pull out the camera, so he wanted to make a video. You’ll see, for a second, him jump in front. Earlier, I filmed him dancing to the music on the Square. He wanted to dance again.
The longer I had the camera out, the more he wanted a turn. You’ll hear him say that when the police walked up. They were very nice to him. This happens whenever I have a video camera out—like, at home for example, where no orange-shirts are punking us around.
Try again.
17 Oct 2008 at 02:37 pm | #
No, Deano-That is exactly what it looks like and sounds like.
You are wrong. He might have been having a great time earlier- but that isn’t what it appears to be- and isn’t how it comes off looking on the video- Fantasy? No- how it appears in reality!!!
And like I said, I agree, it is a minor thing that they turned into a major event that never should have happened. But was it enough to whip out the camera? I don’t know. But there are better things you can be chasing down right now.
21 Oct 2008 at 01:56 pm | #
My guess would be they don’t want kids playing in the gravel because, heaven forbid, if one of those kids fall and cuts a knee or throws a rock at someone then the “victim” will be ready to sue the City, 3CDC, and whoever else they can. Use some logic man, c’mon.
Here’s a wacky idea - when someone asks you to do not do something, how about you NOT DO IT?
21 Oct 2008 at 02:09 pm | #
marge, my son says “Can we make a video?” He is five. Do you think he has a clue about what I’m doing, when ALL of his other experiences of having the camera have been to film him talking, telling stories, dancing, and such?
techNATEly, have you been there? There are no “rocks” to be thrown. It is more akin to sand than to rocks.
But here is the thing—my son stopped when asked. But is there a rule against playing in the dirt? If not, then get off your high horse and let my kid play in the dirt if he wants to do it. I mean, that’s what they teach him to do at his school!